📓 In your handwritten notebooks
- Feb – March 21 2026, pp. 29–32 — Immigration policy → open PDF p35 (file not included in this release)
Index: Personal Journal
Cameraman Has MELTDOWN Over Conversation About Islamic Immigration
Anti-immigration / restrictionist arguments (as stated in the transcript)
1) Core claim: illegal border-crossing is a serious violation of sovereignty and law
- Law-breaking frame: Crossing without authorization is “breaking the law,” so the person crossing is “not the innocent one” and should face repercussions.
- Sovereignty frame: A nation is a bounded political community with the right to set rules for entry: “This is our nation. These are our borders.”
- Responsibility shift: Once a country announces its rules, someone who chooses to cross anyway is at fault for the resulting confrontation (“they put themselves in this position”).
2) Deterrence claim: enforcement must be harsh enough to restore respect for the law
- Fear/respect mechanism: If penalties are mild, people won’t “respect and fear the law,” so consequences must be “raised up.”
- Escalation logic: Because illegal entry continues, current enforcement is framed as insufficient; therefore, more severe enforcement is implied as necessary.
3) “Extreme measure” proposal (violence at the border) as the “only solution”
- Moratorium + lethal force is floated explicitly: “you have to have a moratorium… if people try to come to the border you have to shoot them.”
- This is justified (in the speaker’s framing) as a last-resort solution when other policies are seen as ineffective.
4) Demographic/cultural preservation arguments
- Demography overwhelm concern: A country may limit numbers because it doesn’t want its “demography to be overwhelmed in 10, 20 years.”
- Culture/people continuity: “This is our country. We want it our way, our culture, and our people.”
- Not-uniquely-white claim: The speaker argues that resistance to demographic change is a “human thing,” not specifically “white racial.”
5) Security/crime framing (including hypotheticals)
- Vetting emphasis: A key distinction is drawn between being “pro-immigrant” and “pro legal immigration,” while “vehemently opposed to illegal immigration.”
- Worst-case hypotheticals: “Boatloads of rapists, murderers, and pedophiles” are used to argue that borders must be enforceable in practice.
- Muslim crime-stat claim: The speaker asserts (without providing evidence in the excerpt) disproportionate sex crimes by “Muslim migrants” in parts of Western Europe and asks if the other side accepts it.
6) Critique of the opposing side as unrealistic / unlimited
- No upper limit framing: The cameraman is pressed repeatedly on whether there is any numerical ceiling; the restrictionist side treats “no upper limit” as proof the opposing view collapses sovereignty and policy realism.
- Prediction of consequences: “You’re going to get the society that you want” is used as a warning: the future will reveal negative outcomes.
Pro-immigration / expansive-immigration arguments (as stated in the transcript)
1) Core moral claim: migration (especially refuge) is a human right
- Human right frame: “Immigration is a human right,” including the right to leave war-torn or violent conditions to build a better life.
- Refugee emphasis: The “refugee fleeing violence” is treated as the paradigmatic case that morally overrides strict border exclusion.
2) Legal/moral critique: “illegal vs legal” is arbitrary given restrictive systems
- Arbitrariness of law: Laws are described as “malleable,” with historical analogies to unjust laws (e.g., segregation-era restrictions).
- Misnomer claim: If legal pathways are minimal or inaccessible, “illegal immigration becomes a misnomer,” and the real issue is opposition to immigration as such, not illegality.
- Structural barrier argument: Legal immigration is portrayed as requiring money/resources and governments “only allow a small amount,” making “all immigration illegal” in effect for many.
3) Violence/rhetoric critique: lethal border enforcement is morally equivalent to political violence
- Consistency objection: You can’t denounce a political murder (Charlie Kirk) while advocating violence (“shooting people”) against those you label political enemies.
- Proportionality argument: Even if crossing is a rule violation, shooting is grossly disproportionate—compared to how society treats minor crimes (speeding/shoplifting).
4) Empirical claim: undocumented immigrants are not a crime threat (and may reduce crime)
- Crime-rate claim: “Undocumented immigrants commit less crimes and less violent crimes” (asserted for the U.S., suggested similar for Western Europe).
- Pushback on “takeover” narrative: Muslims are said to be a small share (roughly “5–10%”) and more often targets of hate crimes than perpetrators, so “oppressing 80%” is framed as factually unsupported.
5) Historical responsibility / imperialism argument: rich countries helped create the refugee flows
- Causal responsibility: Western interventions (especially the U.S. and allies) are said to have killed large numbers and destabilized regions, producing refugees.
- Hypocrisy charge: It’s “hypocritical” to deny entry when the receiving countries contributed to conditions causing flight.
- Colonial/imperial context: Migration direction is linked to imperial history and global inequality (people move toward “where all the goodies are,” and the question becomes why those places are stable/wealthy).
6) Anti-bigotry frame: restrictionism is rooted in racism/Islamophobia
- Motivation diagnosis: The restrictionist narrative is described as fear-driven (“I’m scared of Muslims and I don’t want to live with them”).
- Race-as-social-construct move: Race is framed as a social construct with shifting boundaries; thus hostility to a religious group can operate as racialization in practice.
- Analogy to exclusionary regimes: Closing borders and demographic preservation rhetoric is compared to Jim Crow-style logic (exclusion framed as “freedom” for the in-group).
7) Policy-ish stance offered (while resisting the “problem” premise)
- Vetting concession: The cameraman says he can “meet halfway” with a vetting process, but argues current systems exclude by quota more than by individualized risk.
- Treatment of illegal entry: If a workable legal process existed, unauthorized entry should be treated as a minor offense with non-lethal enforcement (detain/apprehend; potentially deport in some cases), not violence.
- Extreme-hypothetical handling: For “known criminals,” he’s “sympathetic” to denial/detention/deportation if there’s evidence; he repeatedly rejects treating the hypothetical as representative.
The main fault lines between the two sides (what they’re actually arguing about)
A) What borders are
- Restrictionist: Borders express sovereign ownership and collective self-determination; violation is serious.
- Expansive: Borders are often instruments of exclusion/oppression; the moral baseline is freedom of movement and refuge.
B) What “illegal” means
- Restrictionist: Illegal means knowingly breaking democratically set rules.
- Expansive: Illegal is often a label created by restrictive policy; if legal routes are blocked, “illegality” is manufactured.
C) Proportionality and the legitimacy of force
- Restrictionist: Harsh deterrence may be necessary to preserve law’s authority (even if unpleasant).
- Expansive: Violence is inherently illegitimate and morally akin to political murder; enforcement must be non-lethal and proportionate.
D) The “facts” dispute
- Restrictionist: Leans on claims about crime (especially sexual crime) and demographic change.
- Expansive: Leans on claims about lower immigrant crime rates, minority status of Muslims, and hate-crime targeting—plus historical causality (war/imperialism).
E) The moral priority
- Restrictionist: Protect the existing polity, culture, and future stability.
- Expansive: Protect human mobility, refuge, and equal moral worth over national preference.
Rhetorical moves used (helpful for your notes)
- Restrictionist: “simple yes/no” demands; extreme hypotheticals (“boatloads of rapists”); deterrence logic; demographic tipping-point warnings; “you’ll get the society you want” prophecy.
- Expansive: analogies to Jim Crow/unjust laws; consistency attack (political violence vs border violence); reframing the premise (“not a problem”); structural critique of legal pathways; moral-historical causality (imperialism produces refugees).
Research
Near-Open Border Regimes and What They Actually Show.pdf (file not included in this release)
Immigration in Practice - research synthesis.pdf (file not included in this release)
The Economic and Fiscal Consequences of Immigration - National Academies.pdf (file not included in this release)
The Wage Impact of the Marielitos - A Reappraisal - Borjas (NBER w21588).pdf (file not included in this release)
UndocumentedandCrimeRate-OEP-Unformatted-Final.pdf (file not included in this release)
Law-Abiding Immigrants: The Incarceration Gap Between Immigrants and the US-born, 1870–2020
Debunking the Myth of the ‘Migrant Crime Wave’
w31440.pdf
https://www.cato.org/blog/immigrants-have-lower-incarceration-rate-native-born-americans-even-when-excluding-black
Open Borders: The Case | “The Efficient, Egalitarian, Libertarian, Utilitarian Way to Double World GDP” — Bryan Caplan
U.S./West caused Immigration due to Wars
Below is a fact-check of the three sub-claims, plus solid counterarguments you can use without denying that outside powers sometimes contribute to displacement.
1) “Causal responsibility: Western interventions killed large numbers and destabilized regions, producing refugees.”
What’s broadly supported
- War and state collapse create forced displacement at scale. UNHCR’s latest global trends report attributes the record level of forced displacement to persecution, conflict, violence, and human-rights violations (end of 2024: 123.2 million forcibly displaced). Source: https://www.unhcr.org/us/global-trends
- Some large refugee crises are linked to conflicts where Western states intervened militarily or politically. Iraq is a common example: UNHCR reporting during the height of violence estimated millions displaced, including millions who fled to neighboring states. Source (UNHCR estimate reported in BMJ): https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1962848/
- There is credible scholarship finding that certain kinds of external security involvement (including military aid) can correlate with higher refugee flows (mechanisms: intensified conflict, repression capacity, or prolonged war). Example working-paper style research summary: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/395366220_Aid_and_Exodus_US_Military_Assistance_and_Refugee_Flows_to_the_United_States
What’s often overstated or missing
- “The West caused most refugee flows” is not supported as a general claim. The biggest displacement drivers in recent years include wars where Western intervention is not the main causal driver (e.g., Sudan, Ukraine), and UN summaries emphasize those ongoing conflicts as major contributors to rising refugee numbers. Source: https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/refugees
- Attribution is usually multi-causal. In Syria, for example, the crisis is widely traced to domestic repression and civil war dynamics (violent crackdown in 2011 escalating into civil war), with many external actors later shaping the war’s course. Source (overview): https://www.unrefugees.org/news/syria-refugee-crisis-explained/
- Counterfactual uncertainty matters. Even if an intervention worsened outcomes, it does not automatically follow that non-intervention would have produced fewer refugees (some interventions stop massacres or shorten wars; others do the opposite). That’s why serious analyses usually avoid monocausal language.
Counterarguments you can use (without handwaving)
- Proximate-cause argument: The immediate cause of flight is typically persecution/violence by local or regional actors (regimes, militias, insurgents). External states may be contributory, but the agents directly generating refugees are usually domestic belligerents.
- Many major refugee crises are not “Western-intervention-made.” The “imperialism caused the refugee wave” frame doesn’t fit key contemporary drivers like Sudan and Ukraine. (UN framing emphasizes these as primary recent drivers.) https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/refugees
- Interventions sometimes reduce displacement. The relevant question isn’t “intervention vs no intervention,” but which policy mix (diplomacy, sanctions, peacekeeping, asylum processing, humanitarian corridors, reconstruction support) plausibly reduces violence fastest.
2) “Hypocrisy: It’s hypocritical to deny entry when receiving countries contributed to conditions causing flight.”
What’s morally plausible
- There is a coherent moral intuition of negative responsibility: if your actions foreseeably helped destabilize a region, you have special obligations to mitigate harm (including admitting refugees or funding protection). This is a standard “you broke it, you help fix it” argument.
**What’s weak as a factual or policy conclusion
- Hypocrisy ≠ obligation to open borders. Even if a country bears partial responsibility, the policy implication could be aid, resettlement quotas, regional protection, or reconstruction, not unlimited admission.
- Responsibility is diffuse. Refugee-producing conflicts usually involve multiple states and actors (regional powers, factions, transnational networks). That makes “you caused it, so you must admit them” hard to allocate cleanly.
Counterarguments you can use
- Remedy can be non-admission. A state can accept responsibility primarily through funding UNHCR, supporting host countries, and stabilizing/conflict-resolution efforts, not necessarily large-scale entry. UNHCR’s mandate and financing needs make this a concrete alternative. https://www.unhcr.org/us/global-trends
- Capacity and institutional legitimacy matter. States have obligations to refugees, but also obligations to citizens and to maintaining a stable system that can sustain future humanitarian commitments. Policy can legitimately consider integration capacity, security screening, and social cohesion, without it being “hypocrisy.”
- Special obligation doesn’t mean sole obligation. Neighboring countries often host the majority of refugees; wealthy countries’ duties can be framed as burden-sharing rather than “you must be the destination.”
3) “Colonial/imperial context: migration direction is linked to imperial history and global inequality (‘where the goodies are’).”
What’s supported (with important caveats)
- Economic differentials and stability are major pull factors for many forms of migration (especially non-refugee migration).
- Historical ties can matter (language, diaspora networks, legal pathways, education systems), which can shape where people try to go.
What’s often missing
- Most refugees do not go to rich Western states. A large share are hosted in neighboring countries or within their own countries (IDPs). This complicates “they all move toward the imperial core for the goodies” as a general description of refugee movement. UNHCR’s global trends materials repeatedly emphasize the scale of regional hosting. https://www.unhcr.org/us/global-trends
- Refugees ≠ migrants. Refugee flows are disproportionately driven by safety, proximity, and immediate feasibility, not maximizing income.
Counterarguments you can use
- Nearest-safe-place logic: Refugee flight is usually toward the closest viable safety, not the richest country. That’s why neighboring states carry much of the burden and why “imperial magnets” is an incomplete model for refugee flows. https://www.unhcr.org/us/global-trends
- Governance-first explanation: A lot of “why they are stable/wealthy” is explained by institutions, rule of law, state capacity, and social trust, not only extraction or colonial legacy. Colonial history can be a factor, but it’s not a sufficient explanation.
- Agency and responsibility in origin states: Corruption, repression, sectarian politics, and civil conflict are not reducible to Western causation; treating them that way can become a kind of soft determinism that denies local agency.
A tight, balanced way to state the strongest version of each side
Best version of the “historical responsibility” argument
- Forced displacement is driven by conflict and repression; when rich states materially contribute to wars, coups, or prolonged instability, they incur special duties to protect those harmed—via resettlement, asylum access, and serious burden-sharing.
Best version of the counterargument
- Refugee crises are typically multi-causal, with proximate responsibility resting primarily on domestic and regional actors. Wealthy countries may owe help, but “help” does not logically entail open-ended admission; it can be met through targeted resettlement, regional support, and conflict-resolution, while maintaining lawful, capacity-based border and asylum systems.
Analyzing Crime Stats
Immigrants, Undocumented Immigration, Crime, and Incarceration — Consolidated Report (Obsidian)
Scope of this report
This report consolidates everything we covered in this chat about:
- Gunadi (2021, Oxford Economic Papers) on undocumented immigration and crime/incarceration proxies
- NBER w31440 (revised 2024) on the long-run immigrant–U.S.-born incarceration gap (1870–2020)
- How results change when you change the benchmark from “all U.S.-born men” to U.S.-born white men (your “remove Black men” framing)
- What we can and cannot infer about doing that same benchmark change for the other studies discussed
- The immigrant-origin (region) breakdown available from the NBER paper
- A curated set of more current supporting / disputing sources we referenced online
A. Gunadi (2021) — undocumented immigrants and crime/institutionalization
A1) What the study claims (headline results)
Study: Chloe Gunadi, Oxford Economic Papers (published 2021).
The paper makes two key claims:
- Institutionalization proxy (individual-level): Using ACS microdata and an imputation method for undocumented status, undocumented immigrants are less likely to be “institutionalized” (used as a proxy for incarceration, focusing on men ages 18–40).
- Crime rates (state-level panel, causal attempt): Across U.S. states, higher undocumented shares do not robustly increase overall violent or property crime rates. In some instrument/outcome combinations, estimates are negative (suggesting decreases), but many results are imprecise and mixed across specifications.
A2) Why “institutionalization” is used and what it means
- In Census/ACS-type data, institutionalization includes prisons/jails but can also include other institutions.
- To make it a closer proxy for incarceration, the analysis focuses on men 18–40, where institutionalization is overwhelmingly incarceration in practice.
A3) How “undocumented status” is measured (and the key risk)
- ACS does not directly label “undocumented.”
- The study imputes undocumented status using available indicators and residual methods.
- The paper warns that misclassification is possible (some legally present people may be classified as undocumented), which could bias estimates in the direction of finding undocumented immigrants “less crime-prone” if misclassified legal residents are especially low-risk.
A4) “Removing Black men” (benchmark shift) in Gunadi
What you asked conceptually maps to: compare undocumented immigrants to U.S.-born whites instead of all U.S.-born.
- Gunadi includes race controls in regression specifications, which helps reduce compositional confounding, but that is not the same as changing the benchmark group.
- The paper does not present a clean published set of results where the “native” benchmark is restricted to U.S.-born whites only, so we cannot compute the exact “undocumented vs U.S.-born white” gap from the paper’s toplines alone.
- Directionally, if you removed U.S.-born Black men from the native benchmark, the native institutionalization rate would likely fall, and the undocumented–native gap would likely shrink.
B. NBER w31440 (revised March 2024) — long-run immigrant incarceration gap, 1870–2020
B1) What the paper claims (core findings)
Paper: “Law-Abiding Immigrants: The Incarceration Gap Between Immigrants and the US-born, 1870–2020” (NBER Working Paper w31440; revised March 2024).
PDF: https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w31440/w31440.pdf
Key claims:
- Persistent pattern: Immigrant men have had lower incarceration rates than U.S.-born men across the full span 1870–2020 (their constructed historical series).
- Post-1960 divergence: The gap grows substantially starting around 1960 and remains large through the modern era.
- Magnitude today (headline summaries):
- Immigrants are about 50–60% less likely to be incarcerated than all U.S.-born men (modern period summary).
- Immigrants are about 15–30% less likely to be incarcerated than U.S.-born white men (alternative benchmark summary).
The paper also summarizes this as roughly ~30% lower compared to U.S.-born whites in the abstract-level framing.
- Across origins: The lower-incarceration pattern appears across major sending regions, with important nuance for Mexico/Central America in the post-2005 period (see below).
- Not explained away by composition: Adjusting for observables (age, marital status, state, race, education) does not eliminate the modern gap.
- Deportation is not the main explanation: The timing does not match (gap begins decades before large deportation surges), and a gap exists among immigrant U.S. citizens (who are not deportable).
- Immigration detention confound (post-2005): The paper emphasizes that part of the measured “incarceration” for some groups—especially Mexican and Central American immigrants—reflects detention in large federal immigration facilities in certain localities. Excluding areas with large ICE facilities reduces or removes much of the post-2005 “excess” relative to U.S.-born whites.
B2) What “remove Black men” changes in the NBER paper (explicitly answered)
Your question (“If you remove the crime from black men, how do the statistics change?”) maps most cleanly in this paper to:
- Compare immigrants to all U.S.-born men vs compare immigrants to U.S.-born white men.
What changes: - The immigrant advantage is largest when comparing to all U.S.-born men (because that benchmark includes groups with higher incarceration rates, for many reasons).
- The immigrant advantage is smaller but still present when comparing to U.S.-born white men.
Reported headline change: - From roughly 50–60% lower (vs all U.S.-born men)
to roughly 15–30% lower (vs U.S.-born white men).
Important precision: - The paper is about incarceration, not crime per se. Incarceration reflects crime plus the entire criminal-justice process (policing, charging, plea bargaining, sentencing), and for noncitizens, immigration enforcement and detention can matter.
C. “Remove Black men” benchmark shift in the other studies discussed
C1) Texas administrative-data arrest/conviction studies (status-linked)
We discussed work that uses Texas administrative records with immigration-status indicators (often summarized as showing undocumented immigrants have lower felony arrest/conviction rates than native-born citizens, at least in Texas).
Key references we used:
- PNAS / PMC version (Texas felony arrests; status-linked comparisons): https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7768760/
- Cato update using Texas homicide convictions: https://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/illegal-immigrant-murderers-texas-2013-2022
- CIS critique of Texas crime-data interpretations: https://cis.org/sites/default/files/2022-10/texas-crime.pdf
How “remove Black men” applies there: - These Texas studies generally report native-born citizen rates vs legal immigrant vs undocumented.
- If you restrict the native-born benchmark to U.S.-born whites, the native-born benchmark rate would likely fall, so the undocumented-vs-native gap would shrink mechanically.
- But the published toplines we discussed do not provide a full “native-born whites only” benchmark table, so we cannot quantify the exact “undocumented vs U.S.-born whites” comparison from the headline results alone without re-tabulation.
C2) State-level “undocumented share vs state crime rate” designs
Some work examines whether states with rising undocumented populations see rising violent/property crime.
- Here, “remove Black men” doesn’t map cleanly to a benchmark swap, because the dependent variable is usually state crime rate totals, not “native arrest rate.”
- The analogous operation would be “subtract crimes committed by Black men from state crime totals,” which is typically not feasible with standard state crime-rate datasets and is not how these panel models are constructed in the published work.
D. NBER region-of-origin breakdown, and comparisons to U.S.-born whites
D1) Overall comparison to U.S.-born whites (explicit summary)
NBER w31440 explicitly says: comparing immigrants to U.S.-born white men reduces the gap, but immigrants remain less incarcerated by roughly 15–30% “today.”
PDF: https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w31440/w31440.pdf
D2) Region-of-origin ranking (what the main PDF supports cleanly)
The main PDF’s figures show immigrant incarceration rates by origin over time. While the paper’s region-level figures are visual (not all values tabulated), the key qualitative takeaways we stated earlier are:
- Old Europeans: lower than U.S.-born whites today
- New Europeans: lower than U.S.-born whites today
- Chinese: much lower than U.S.-born whites today
- Rest of world: lower than U.S.-born whites today
- Mexican & Central American: can appear higher than U.S.-born whites post-2005 in the raw series, but this is heavily affected by immigration detention geography; excluding large ICE-facility areas reduces that pattern substantially.
PDF: https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w31440/w31440.pdf
D3) Approximate 2019 origin-group levels (read off the figure; not exact)
From visual inspection of the main figure (men 18–40; per 100k), you can infer a rough ordering:
- U.S.-born (all): highest (roughly high-2000s per 100k)
- All immigrants: much lower (roughly mid-1000s per 100k)
- Chinese: lowest (very low hundreds per 100k)
- Old/New Europeans and “rest of world”: generally below the all-immigrant average and far below U.S.-born
- Mexican & Central American: higher than most other immigrant groups, closer to U.S.-born levels in the late 2000s/2010s, with the detention caveat noted above
Because these are figure read-offs, treat them as directional and order-of-magnitude, not precise point estimates.
E. More current supporting or disputing work referenced online
E1) Supporting (recent, widely cited)
- Texas administrative-status felony arrest comparisons (peer-reviewed; status-linked):
- NBER long-run incarceration gap (immigrants overall; revised 2024):
- Brennan Center synthesis on migrants and crime (contextual, not undocumented-specific):
- Migration Policy Institute explainer that links out to key studies:
E2) Disputing / critique sources referenced
- CIS critique of Texas crime-data interpretations:
- Cato Texas homicide conviction update (policy analysis; not peer-reviewed, but transparent and current):
- https://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/illegal-immigrant-murderers-texas-2013-2022
(These last two are ideologically different institutions; reading them together helps you see the main points of disagreement: classification, denominators, what counts as “crime” vs immigration detention, and whether Texas generalizes.)
F. Practical “how to interpret” summary
F1) What is most solid across everything discussed
- Across multiple approaches (national historical incarceration series; ACS-based institutionalization proxies; Texas administrative status-linked records), the dominant empirical pattern is that immigrants are not more incarcerated than the U.S.-born and often are substantially less.
F2) What changes when you “remove Black men” from the benchmark
- Doing that reduces the immigrant advantage numerically because the benchmark incarceration rate drops.
- In the NBER paper, this benchmark shift is explicit: the gap shrinks from roughly 50–60% lower (vs all U.S.-born men) to roughly 15–30% lower (vs U.S.-born white men), but remains negative (immigrants still lower).
F3) What remains uncertain / contested
- Incarceration is not identical to crime; it reflects the justice process and can be affected by enforcement and immigration detention.
- Region-of-origin comparisons for Mexico/Central America in the post-2005 era are especially sensitive to whether immigration detention is being counted as “incarceration.”
G. Links used in this chat (copy-friendly)
- NBER w31440 PDF: https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w31440/w31440.pdf
- NBER w31440 page: https://www.nber.org/papers/w31440
- Texas status-linked arrests (PMC/PNAS version): https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7768760/
- Cato Texas homicide convictions (2013–2022): https://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/illegal-immigrant-murderers-texas-2013-2022
- CIS Texas crime critique PDF: https://cis.org/sites/default/files/2022-10/texas-crime.pdf
- Brennan Center migrant crime-wave analysis: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/debunking-myth-migrant-crime-wave
- Migration Policy Institute immigrants & crime explainer: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/content/immigrants-and-crime
H. If you want to extend this note (next steps you can do)
- If you want exact “immigrant-origin vs U.S.-born whites” numbers (not figure read-offs), the cleanest route is to pull the online appendix referenced by NBER w31440 and extract the benchmarked series that compares to U.S.-born whites.
- If you want “remove Black men” quantified for Texas status-linked studies, you’d need a table re-run with the native-born benchmark restricted to U.S.-born whites (or a decomposition using race-specific native rates).
Legal/Moral
Here’s the idea in its strongest form, where it comes from intellectually, and the best “yes, but” objections to it.
The idea, clarified
The claim isn’t “laws don’t matter.” It’s closer to:
- Legality is not a moral trump card when the law is shaped by politics, fear, or exclusion.
- If a society deliberately keeps legal entry channels tiny, slow, or unattainable, then calling the resulting flows “illegal” functions less as a neutral description and more as a delegitimizing label.
- Therefore, a lot of “illegal vs legal” rhetoric may be masking a deeper disagreement: not about process, but about whether these people should be allowed in at all.
That’s a legal-moral critique of how categories get used, not just a policy complaint.
Intellectual roots and “family tree”
You can see this argument emerging from a few overlapping traditions:
1) Natural law and unjust-law arguments
This is the classic move: a law can be legally valid yet morally corrupt. The segregation analogy is doing that work: legality ≠ justice.
- Root intuition: moral legitimacy comes from something deeper than procedure—human dignity, fairness, equal standing.
2) Legal realism / critical legal studies (CLS)
Legal realism: law often reflects power, incentives, and institutional interests, not pure reason. CLS pushes further: “neutral” legal categories can encode hierarchies.
- Root intuition: “illegal” can be a political status produced by rule design, not a natural moral fact.
3) Republican freedom / domination (neo-republicanism)
Freedom isn’t just absence of interference; it’s absence of arbitrary power. If the state designs a system where entry is effectively impossible for certain groups, those groups are subject to domination by rulemaking they can’t reasonably comply with.
- Root intuition: when rules are structured to be unmeetable, “you broke the rule” feels like blaming the victim of domination.
4) Liberal egalitarian and cosmopolitan arguments
Some strands emphasize that life prospects are massively shaped by birthplace, which is morally arbitrary. If borders lock in that lottery too tightly, then “illegality” looks like enforcement of a morally arbitrary privilege.
- Root intuition: restricting movement needs strong justification because it entrenches unequal opportunity.
5) Civil disobedience / necessity arguments (adjacent)
Less about immigrants’ rights in the abstract, more about hard cases: survival, family unity, fleeing violence, or economic desperation. When compliance is impossible and stakes are high, breaking the rule can be framed as morally excusable.
- Root intuition: we excuse certain lawbreaking when law creates impossible or cruel choices.
Pro arguments (what’s compelling here)
A) “Illegal” is partly a product of policy design
If legal channels are extremely narrow relative to real demand—especially for low-wage labor, family ties, or asylum-adjacent cases—then “illegal immigration” can look like a foreseeable outcome engineered by restriction, not purely individual wrongdoing.
B) The moral content of “illegal” is doing extra work
In public debate, “illegal” often carries an implied moral conclusion: unworthy, criminal, contemptible. But many immigration violations are civil or administrative in nature, and the moral story is mixed: working, paying taxes, raising kids, obeying most laws, etc.
C) A “process” argument can conceal a “preferences” argument
Sometimes people say “I’m fine with immigration, just do it legally,” while supporting policies that make legality rare. The critique exposes possible inconsistency: if you close the doors and then condemn people for coming through windows, “legality” is functioning as a rhetorical shield.
D) The “unjust law” analogy has real force in principle
Even if immigration restrictions aren’t equivalent to segregation, the form of the reasoning is coherent: you can challenge the moral legitimacy of a law by pointing to arbitrariness, discrimination, or cruelty in its design or application.
E) Structural barriers are real, and they’re uneven
Money, education, employer sponsorship, paperwork, waiting times, legal counsel—these all advantage the already-advantaged. So “legal immigration” can look like an avenue for those with resources, while others are effectively excluded.
Con arguments (the strongest pushbacks)
A) “Arbitrary” is doing too much work
All law is, in one sense, contingent and changeable; that doesn’t make it morally void. The key question is: arbitrary compared to what standard?
- A critic will say: borders and membership rules are inherently political; not “arbitrary” in the sense of random or baseless, but grounded in self-determination, security, fiscal capacity, and social trust.
B) “Misnomer” overreaches
Even if pathways are limited, “illegal” still describes a real fact: a rule was violated. Calling it a misnomer can sound like “if the law is hard, it’s not really a law,” which many will reject.
- More defensible version: “illegal” is descriptively accurate but morally overloaded and often selectively applied.
C) Moral permission doesn’t scale into policy permission
Hard cases (survival, coercion, fleeing danger) can justify exceptions, but opponents will say: making this the general frame risks turning sympathy into an open-ended right, undermining the ability to set enforceable rules at all.
D) System-level consequences matter morally
Even if individual choices are understandable, states worry about effects: wage impacts at the bottom, housing strain, service burdens, political backlash, and incentives for future flows.
- A critic argues: you can’t judge immigration solely at the level of the migrant’s motives; you also have to judge it at the level of collective obligations and long-run sustainability.
E) “You just oppose immigration” can be unfair mind-reading
Some people genuinely support immigration but prioritize:
- controlled numbers,
- skill mix,
- public consent,
- security vetting,
- avoiding line-jumping relative to people waiting abroad.
They’ll say the critique collapses real distinctions into “you’re anti-immigrant,” which can shut down good-faith disagreement.
F) The segregation analogy can backfire
The analogy is structurally illuminating (law can be unjust), but historically loaded comparisons can look like they’re equating border control with racial caste, which many will see as category error. Even sympathetic listeners may still reject the rhetoric.
Where the argument is strongest vs weakest
Strongest when:
- Legal routes are effectively closed for large classes of people while labor demand is tacitly welcomed.
- Enforcement is selective or politicized.
- The rhetoric treats “illegal” as a character judgment rather than a status.
- There are compelling necessity/family-unity cases.
Weakest when: - There are clear, workable legal channels but people choose illegal entry primarily to bypass waits/criteria.
- The claim slides into “laws are arbitrary, therefore irrelevant,” which undermines rule-of-law legitimacy.
- It ignores system-level constraints and democratic consent.
A tightened version that avoids the easy rebuttals
If you want this idea to be sharper and harder to dismiss, it often lands better as:
- “Illegality is real, but the moral condemnation attached to it is often disproportionate and politically instrumental.”
- “When a system predictably produces ‘illegality’ at scale, the moral spotlight should include the system designers, not only the individuals.”
- “The core dispute is often about acceptable levels and types of immigration; ‘do it legally’ is sometimes a proxy rather than the real argument.”
If you want, I can rewrite your bullet list into a single compact paragraph that preserves the logic but avoids the “misnomer” overclaim while keeping the moral critique intact.
Deep Research
Modern Advocates of Open Entry and Settlement.pdf (file not included in this release)
Modern advocates of open entry and settlement
Executive summary
“Open borders” in contemporary scholarship is not a single policy blueprint but a family of positions that share one core thesis: routine state exclusion of peaceful would-be migrants requires extraordinary justification—moral, democratic, and/or economic. 1
Modern advocates of open entry/settlement tend to cluster into seven recognizable argument camps:
- Liberal-egalitarian: Borders distribute life chances based on morally arbitrary birth; consistent liberal equality therefore supports (at minimum) a strong presumption for open admission. 2
- Democratic legitimacy / border coercion: Border enforcement coerces outsiders; if democratic legitimacy requires justification to those subject to coercion, unilateral border control is illegitimate without broader inclusion in justification. 3
- Economic-development / “place premium”: Migration barriers are among the world’s largest distortions; freer mobility could yield very large global gains compared with liberalizing goods/capital alone. 4
- Keyhole-solutions pragmatism: Keep near-open movement as the baseline while addressing specific worries (fiscal, wages, voting rights) with targeted “keyhole” institutional designs rather than broad exclusion. 5
- Citizenship-as-inherited-advantage: Birthright citizenship functions like inherited property, entrenching global inequality; open entry or deep reforms to membership allocation follow from this diagnosis. 6
- Freedom-from-control critique: Immigration control expands surveillance and coercion over insiders; thus restriction threatens liberal freedom even for citizens. 7
- Religious/humanitarian: Migrants possess inherent dignity and strong moral claims; many religious institutions emphasize duties to welcome/protect while often also affirming some right of states to regulate for the common good. 8
Policy-wise, contemporary “open entry” proposals vary from presumptive admission to work-first high-volume visas to regional free movement and asylum expansion. A recurring design tension is whether to separate (a) residence/work rights from (b) welfare access and (c) political rights, using staged access to preserve welfare-state politics and democratic stability—or whether staged rights create an unacceptable two-tier society. 9
Empirically, the mainstream synthesis literature most relevant to open-entry debates is nuanced: immigration’s average effects on native wages/employment tend to be small, but distributional impacts can concentrate on specific groups; fiscal impacts depend heavily on age/skill composition and accounting horizon; and research syntheses generally do not support simple “immigrants increase crime” generalizations. 10
Real-world precedents (notably Schengen, plus regional regimes like ECOWAS and MERCOSUR residence agreements) show that large-scale mobility is administratively possible, but requires governance scaffolding (documentation, coordination, enforcement cooperation) and often retains emergency mechanisms for internal controls. 11
Conceptual map of open entry
Open-entry arguments typically target one or more of these “moral choke points”:
- Arbitrariness: birthplace and citizenship inheritance allocate opportunity like a lottery. 12
- Coercion and standing: border enforcement uses threats/force; outsiders have standing to demand justification. 13
- Massive welfare stakes: mobility yields large gains for migrants and potentially large global output increases. 14
- Internal liberty costs: to control outsiders, states often monitor insiders (employment, housing, identity checks). 15
- Humanitarian duty: at minimum, strong duties toward refugees and people seeking survival/rights protection. 16
A key clarifier: international human-rights law strongly protects the right to leave any country and the right to seek asylum—but does not straightforwardly codify a universal right to enter and settle in any country of choice, which is why much of open-entry argumentation is philosophical rather than strictly legal. 17
timeline
title Major publications shaping modern open entry debates (late 20th–21st c.)
1983 : Walzer — Spheres of Justice (membership, bounded community)
1987 : Carens — “Aliens and Citizens” (liberal equality → strong presumption for open borders)
1990 : Card — Mariel Boatlift study (canonical labor-market natural experiment)
2008 : Wellman — “Immigration and Freedom of Association” (right to exclude)
2008 : Abizadeh — “Democratic Theory and Border Coercion” (unilateral control illegitimate)
2009 : Shachar — The Birthright Lottery (citizenship as inherited property)
2011 : Clemens — “Trillion-Dollar Bills…” (mobility barriers as colossal distortion)
2013 : Carens — The Ethics of Immigration (book-length treatment)
2013 : Collier — Exodus (managed migration; cohesion/brain drain concerns)
2015 : Borjas — Mariel reappraisal (distributional wage effects debate)
2016 : Miller — Strangers in Our Midst (self-determination & limits)
2016 : NASEM — Economic and Fiscal Consequences of Immigration (major synthesis)
2019 : Peri & Yasenov — Mariel synthetic control (reassessment)
2019 : Caplan & Weinersmith — Open Borders (popularization + keyhole logic)
2021 : Kukathas — Immigration and Freedom (control threatens insiders’ liberty)
Leading advocates and their argument structures
The subsections below are organized by camp. Each includes a short bio, signature claim, key works (URLs in inline code for Obsidian), a one-sentence critique, and the requested “Claims → Assumptions → Evidence demanded → Rhetorical tactics” map.
Liberal-egalitarian open entry
Thinker: Joseph Carens18 19
Short bio: Political theorist and professor (University of Toronto profile). 19
Signature claim: If we take liberal equality seriously, then the moral case for routine exclusion is weak; major ethical theories can converge on a strong presumption for open borders. 20
Key works (primary): https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/review-of-politics/article/aliens-and-citizens-the-case-for-open-borders/5B0946DEB5203B576657C506C58F0FD6 21; https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-ethics-of-immigration-9780199933839 19
One-sentence critique: Critics argue the argument can be “too ideal-theoretic,” underweighting transition constraints (political backlash, welfare-state feasibility, integration capacity) even if the end-state ideal is morally attractive. 22
Claims: Exclusion based mainly on birthplace is morally suspect; the default should be admission unless strong harm-based reasons justify restriction. 23
Assumptions: Equal moral worth applies across borders in ways that constrain state discretion; citizenship birthright is not a sufficient moral reason for exclusion. 12
Evidence demanded: Credible evidence of large, non-mitigable harms from openness that cannot be addressed by narrower tools than exclusion. 24
Rhetorical tactics: “Convergence” framing (multiple moral theories push toward openness) and analogy to internal freedom of movement. 23
Democratic legitimacy and border coercion
Thinker: Arash Abizadeh25 26
Short bio: Political philosopher and theorist (McGill profile emphasizes democratic theory, boundaries, immigration). 26
Signature claim: Border regimes are coercively enforced; democratic legitimacy principles imply outsiders subject to coercion must be included in the justificatory process—undermining unilateral border control. 27
Key works (primary): https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0090591707310090 28
One-sentence critique: A common rebuttal is that “exclusion” is not the kind of coercion that triggers democratic inclusion, or that “all subject to coercion” principles give counterintuitive boundary results. 22
Claims: Unilateral border control is democratically illegitimate when it coerces foreigners without including them in collective self-rule about that coercion. 28
Assumptions: Democratic legitimacy is sensitive to coercion (“all subjected” or related principles) and borders are coercively maintained—not merely non-association. 13
Evidence demanded: A principled account of why border coercion is exempt from democratic justification constraints applied domestically. 29
Rhetorical tactics: Boundary-problem framing (“who is the demos?”) and moral standing arguments that shift the burden of proof to restrictionists. 30
Economic-development and “place premium” open entry
Thinker: Michael Clemens31 32
Short bio: Economist specializing in migration and development (Center for Global Development profile). 32
Signature claim: Migration barriers are likely among the world’s largest economic distortions; estimates suggest removing barriers could yield gains that are large fractions of world GDP, dwarfing many other liberalization reforms. 33
Key works (primary / peer-reviewed): https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/jep.25.3.83 34; “place premium” working paper hub: https://www.cgdev.org/publication/place-premium-wage-differences-identical-workers-across-us-border-working-paper-148 35
One-sentence critique: Skeptics argue that large-scale mobility could change institutions and political equilibria, so “static” place-premium-based gains may not scale linearly. 36
Claims: Opening labor mobility is among the highest-leverage anti-poverty reforms because location drives huge income differences. 33
Assumptions: A significant portion of wage gaps is place/institution-driven (not purely worker inherent productivity), and receiving-country institutions remain robust under higher mobility. 14
Evidence demanded: Credible identification of (a) selection vs place effects, and (b) political-economy constraints (welfare state, backlash) that mediate whether large gains are realizable. 37
Rhetorical tactics: “Trillion-dollar bills” metaphor and comparative framing (“bigger than gains from trade liberalization”). 38
Keyhole-solutions open entry and popularization
Thinker: Bryan Caplan39 40
Short bio: Economist (George Mason University faculty profile) and prominent public advocate of open borders. 41
Signature claim: The moral and economic case for open borders is strong; many objections can be addressed with targeted “keyhole solutions” rather than broad exclusion. 42
Key works (primary): https://openborderscomic.com/ 43; GMU profile: https://economics.gmu.edu/people/bcaplan 40
One-sentence critique: Critics argue keyhole designs (staged benefits, restricted voting) can be administratively complex and risk legitimizing durable second-class status. 44
Claims: If specific harms exist (fiscal costs, wage pressure, political instability), address them directly while keeping movement broadly free. 45
Assumptions: Many harms are localized/mitigable; liberal states can design compensation and phased-access schemes that preserve both high mobility and social stability. 46
Evidence demanded: Evidence that harms are (a) severe, (b) unmitigable via targeted policy, and (c) uniquely prevented by exclusion rather than by labor, fiscal, or political-inclusion reforms. 47
Rhetorical tactics: “Meet the objection” structure (wages, welfare, crime, culture), plus analogies to internal free movement and “regulatory” framing (immigration controls as labor regulation). 48
Citizenship-as-inherited-advantage arguments
Thinker: Ayelet Shachar49 50
Short bio: Legal scholar (Berkeley Law faculty profile; also University of Toronto law/political science profile). 51
Signature claim: Birthright citizenship in affluent states functions like inherited property (“birthright lottery”), reproducing global inequality; reforming membership allocation is a core justice task. 52
Key works (primary): https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674032712 53
One-sentence critique: Communitarian critics respond that citizenship is not merely distributive property; it is also constitutive of collective self-rule and special obligations, which the inheritance analogy can understate. 54
Claims: The moral problem is not only at the border checkpoint; it is the inherited institutional sorting of persons into unequal opportunity sets. 52
Assumptions: Birth-based membership allocation is morally analogous to inheritance in its arbitrariness and distributive consequences. 55
Evidence demanded: Evidence that birthright membership is the dominant driver of opportunity inequality and that feasible reforms (including more open entry) meaningfully address it without collapsing governance capacity. 56
Rhetorical tactics: “Lottery/inheritance” framing and shifting focus from border lines to membership institutions. 52
Freedom-from-control arguments
Thinker: Chandran Kukathas57 58
Short bio: Political theorist (SMU faculty profile), known for work on liberalism and the “open society” critique of control regimes. 59
Signature claim: The greater threat comes not from immigration but from immigration control, which requires monitoring and constraining insiders and normalizes brutality and surveillance. 15
Key works (primary): https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv16rdcgw 60 (book access page); SMU repository pointer: https://ink.library.smu.edu.sg/soss_research/2919/ 61; note: direct Princeton UP page exists but is blocked to this tool by robots.txt (https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691189680/immigration-and-freedom) (access unspecified). 62
One-sentence critique: Critics argue that rule-of-law enforcement can be designed in less liberty-eroding ways than Kukathas implies, and that some border governance is compatible with liberal freedom. 63
Claims: Immigration restriction often implies internal policing (employment, housing, identity), producing a “surveillance society” that undermines freedom. 15
Assumptions: Enforcement spillovers are structural, not accidental; controlling outsiders requires controlling citizens’ associations (work, rent, educate, trade). 15
Evidence demanded: Evidence that high-restriction regimes can scale without significant civil-liberty costs and that those costs are outweighed by benefits (security, cohesion, fiscal sustainability). 64
Rhetorical tactics: Inversion (“restrictionist policies threaten citizens”), plus concrete enforcement examples illustrating coercion beyond the border. 65
Religious and humanitarian open entry discourse
Representative institutions: Holy See66; United Nations67; World Council of Churches68 69
Signature claim: Migrants possess inherent dignity and strong moral claims to protection and humane treatment; prosperous societies have heightened duties, though many religious authorities also affirm some state power to regulate borders for the common good. 8
Key texts (primary):
- Catechism §2241 https://www.vatican.va/content/catechism/en/part_three/section_two/chapter_two/article_4/v_the_authorities_in_civil_society.html 70
- UDHR and Article 13/14 https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights 71
- WCC “People on the Move” statement https://www.oikoumene.org/resources/documents/statement-on-people-on-the-move-migrants-and-refugees 72
One-sentence critique: Critics note that humanitarian language can under-specify governance tradeoffs (capacity, security screening, fiscal constraints), requiring translation into operational policy (e.g., admissions criteria, integration support, enforcement limits). 73
Claims:
- States must respect basic rights and human dignity of migrants; prosperous nations have duties to welcome within capacity. 74
- International norms protect exit and asylum-seeking, underwriting “open-doors” impulses especially for refugees. 75
Assumptions: Moral duties cross borders; “common good” includes noncitizens in meaningful ways; human dignity is not contingent on legal status. 76
Evidence demanded: Capacity and burden-sharing evidence (“to the extent they are able”), plus proof that restrictive enforcement is necessary and proportionate rather than punitive. 77
Rhetorical tactics: Dignity-first framing and condemnation of dehumanization; frequent use of universalist language that treats migration as morally salient in itself. 78
Policy models and package comparison
Policy debates among open-entry advocates often turn less on “open vs closed” and more on what rights come with entry (work, welfare, political participation) and what enforcement is legitimate for the narrow exclusion list. 79
Core policy models in the open-entry ecosystem:
- Presumptive admission: admit by default subject to narrow individualized exclusions (serious security threats, demonstrable dangerousness) and due process. 80
- Work-first mobility: broad legal access to work/residence at scale; membership and benefits can be phased. 81
- Large visa expansion: increase legal channels so irregular entry becomes less necessary; often treated as a politically feasible path toward openness. 82
- Keyhole solutions: keep high admission, but redesign policies around the specific feared mechanism (wages, fiscal costs, political stability). 83
- Staged welfare / staged citizenship: delayed access to certain benefits or voting in exchange for near-open movement; hotly contested inside the movement. 84
- Asylum expansion and faster processing: strengthen and operationalize the right to seek asylum; reduce harmful waiting and backlogs. 85
Comparative table of policy packages
| policy name | admission rules | welfare access | political rights timing | enforcement focus | main proponents | pros/cons |
| Presumptive admission with narrow exclusions | default “yes”; exclusions limited and individualized; due process emphasized 86 | generally standard access, possibly after short residence 87 | usual naturalization timelines; some argue for faster inclusion of long-term residents 88 | targeted screening, ordinary criminal justice, anti-exploitation enforcement 89 | Carens-style liberal egalitarianism; rights-based theorists sympathetic to harm-limited exclusion 80 | pros: minimal categorical exclusion; cons: “narrow” exclusions can expand in practice 90 |
| Work-first high-mobility visas | very large legal work/residence permits 91 | staged or contribution-tied access to some benefits 92 | franchise often delayed; citizenship after longer residence 84 | channel-building + labor standards; shift enforcement from migrants to exploiters 93 | economists emphasizing large gains (Clemens-adjacent); keyhole pragmatists 94 | pros: reduces irregularity; captures major gains; cons: risk of durable second-class labor if rights weak 84 |
| Keyhole open entry bundle | keep borders broadly open; tailor constraints to specific harms 83 | adjustable (waiting periods, levies, eligibility rules) 46 | adjustable (delayed voting, residency prerequisites) 84 | harm-specific tools; emphasize lawful channels and rights protections 83 | Caplan-style advocacy and allied policy writers 95 | pros: targets objections directly; cons: can be administratively heavy and morally controversial 84 |
| Citizenship/status reform (membership focus) | often compatible with high entry; focus is reforming inherited membership and “bordering” 52 | varies; often linked to redistribution proposals and global justice mechanisms 96 | often supports pathways to membership based on genuine connection (not birth alone) 52 | not principally enforcement-centered; more institutional redesign 52 | Shachar-style frameworks 97 | pros: targets root arbitrariness; cons: does not by itself specify entry capacity or screening rules 73 |
| Freedom-from-control minimal restriction | openness favored to avoid internal surveillance spillovers 15 | typically unspecified; concern is coercion costs of control regimes 65 | typically unspecified; focus is liberty tradeoff rather than citizenship theory 98 | reduce internal policing; prioritize civil liberties and association freedom 15 | Kukathas 99 | pros: highlights hidden costs; cons: critics argue it underspecifies legitimate security/fiscal governance 64 |
| Asylum-maximalist “open doors” | broaden protection and access to procedures; strong non-refoulement implementation 75 | benefits typically after recognition; pre-recognition access varies by country 100 | political rights follow ordinary residence/citizenship rules 101 | capacity in adjudication, reception, and integration; reduce backlogs 102 | humanitarian/religious institutions; some egalitarians emphasize forced migration duties 78 | pros: strongest legal-moral footing; cons: does not fully address economic-mobility justice for non-refugees 103 |
Empirical evidence and what it does and does not show
Empirical research is most informative when it is matched to a specific mechanism that open-entry opponents and proponents dispute: wages, fiscal balance, crime, and institutional/political stability. 10
Economic gains and Clemens-style “large fractions of world GDP” claims
The strongest widely cited “big gains” claim in the open-entry literature is that barriers to labor mobility generate extremely large global deadweight losses; Clemens argues estimated gains from reducing migration barriers are plausibly very large—often presented as large fractions of world GDP, and much larger than gains from eliminating remaining goods/capital barriers. 38
The conceptual empirical backbone is the “place premium” approach: wage differences for observably similar workers across borders are large, suggesting location/institutions drive a significant share of income differences. 104
A key caution from the same research ecosystem is that fiscal and distributional impacts vary with migrant composition and policy design; even if global gains are large, domestic political feasibility may depend on managing concentrated losses. 105
Labor-market impacts in destination countries
A canonical natural experiment remains the Mariel Boatlift: David Card106 famously reported little effect on wages/unemployment for less-skilled workers in Miami after the 1980 influx (as analyzed using CPS data). 107
George Borjas108 reanalyzed Mariel, arguing for a substantial negative wage effect for a narrowly defined group of non-Hispanic male high-school dropouts, emphasizing skill matching and subgroup selection. 109
Later work by Giovanni Peri110 and Vasil Yasenov111 applies synthetic control methods and finds no significant wage effect for the comparison group they emphasize, highlighting sensitivity to method and sample selection. 112
Major synthesis work by the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine113 concludes that, overall, long-run wage/employment impacts on native-born workers are small, with negative impacts most likely for prior immigrants or certain low-skill subgroups; it also emphasizes positive contributions to long-run growth. 114
Fiscal impacts and welfare-state concerns
The National Academies synthesis emphasizes a common pattern in fiscal accounting: first-generation immigrants can be net fiscal costs in static accounting largely due to state/local education costs for children, while the second generation often becomes among the strongest fiscal contributors. 115
OECD cross-country work (including the International Migration Outlook fiscal chapter tradition) commonly finds fiscal impacts of immigration are close to zero on average across OECD countries, with substantial cross-country variation explained by labor-market integration and immigrant age structure. 116
These results are frequently invoked by open-entry advocates to argue that “fiscal collapse” is not an inevitable consequence of immigration, but critics counter that marginal impacts under current managed systems may not extrapolate to genuinely open entry—hence the popularity of staged welfare designs among keyhole advocates. 117
Crime and public safety
A high-citation review by Graham Ousey118 and Charis Kubrin119 (Annual Review of Criminology) synthesizes a large body of macrosocial research and reports that immigration and crime are often not positively related, and in many studies are null or negative, while noting heterogeneity and methodological challenges. 120
Open-entry advocates frequently use such syntheses to reject generalized “immigrants drive crime” narratives; restrictionist critics often shift to narrower claims (particular contexts, offenses, or rapid inflows), or to institutional capacity arguments (screening/assimilation). 121
Objections and counterarguments
This section covers the named prominent critics and how open-entry advocates typically respond.
Membership and self-determination
Critic: Michael Walzer122 123
Short bio: Political theorist associated with the Institute for Advanced Study. 123
Signature claim: Bounded membership is a condition for distributive justice and collective self-rule; communities may control admissions to sustain shared purposes. 124
Key works (primary): Spheres of Justice125 (publisher/info varies; excerpt commonly circulated): https://www.ias.edu/sites/default/files/sss/BordersWalzer.pdf 126
One-sentence critique: Open-entry theorists argue “self-determination” does not entail wide discretion to exclude peaceful opportunity-seekers, and that long-term residents generate membership claims that boundedness arguments must still respect. 23
Claims: States may restrict immigration to preserve the “self” in self-determination. 127
Assumptions: Political community is morally special; obligations are thicker to co-members; membership boundaries are legitimate objects of collective choice. 54
Evidence demanded (by Walzer-style critics): Evidence that open entry does not dissolve shared institutions/solidarity necessary for egalitarian democracy and welfare states. 128
Rhetorical tactics: “Community as association” and “shared life” framing; emphasis on membership as constitutive rather than merely distributive. 127
Freedom of association and a right to exclude
Critic: Christopher Heath Wellman129 130
Short bio: Philosopher at Washington University in St. Louis (faculty page). 130
Signature claim: A legitimate state has a presumptive right to control immigration grounded in citizens’ freedom of association, paralleling the right of associations to choose their members. 131
Key works (primary): https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/592311 132; debate book with Phillip Cole133: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/debating-the-ethics-of-immigration-9780199731732 134
One-sentence critique: Open-entry critics argue the state–club analogy is morally incomplete because states coercively govern territory and residents, and because exclusion imposes severe harms not parallel to private association decisions. 135
Claims: Legitimate states may exclude even many desperate would-be entrants, as an implication of associative freedom. 136
Assumptions: States are morally relevantly similar to associations; collective autonomy includes selecting members. 137
Evidence demanded (by Wellman-style critics): A principled line showing why association-based autonomy does not justify border discretion, or why state coercion changes the analogy decisively. 135
Rhetorical tactics: “Club analogy” and focus on legitimacy of the state as a rights-protecting agent entitled to defend autonomy. 138
Liberal nationalism and feasibility constraints
Critic: David Miller139 140
Short bio: Political theorist at Oxford (Nuffield/Faculty profiles). 141
Signature claim: Democratic states have a right to control immigration to preserve self-determination and sustain equal treatment commitments, while still carrying strong duties to refugees and those in urgent need. 142
Key works (primary): https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674986787 143; Oxford archive chapter: https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:a072319a-4e17-4d82-9ccf-520d17bf70eb/files/rt148fh621 144
One-sentence critique: Open-entry theorists argue Miller’s feasibility emphasis risks building current political preferences into moral principles, and that his framework can underweight the scale of harm imposed by exclusion. 145
Claims: The right to exit is strong; the right to enter is not general; states may limit immigration to maintain democratic and distributive institutions. 146
Assumptions: Egalitarian democracy requires bounded solidarity; large-scale immigration can affect the character of political community; feasibility is morally relevant. 147
Evidence demanded (by Miller-style critics): Evidence that open entry is compatible with sustained equal treatment and welfare-state legitimacy under realistic political conditions. 92
Rhetorical tactics: “Realism” and “context of justice” framing; comparison to domestic obligations and the demandingness of citizenship rights. 148
Distributional wage effects skepticism
Critic: George Borjas108 149
Short bio: Economist at Harvard Kennedy School (faculty profile). 150
Signature claim: Even if aggregate gains exist, immigration can redistribute income away from low-skill competing workers; empirical identification should focus on skill-matched groups where displacement pressure is most plausible. 151
Key works (primary): Mariel reappraisal NBER working paper: https://www.nber.org/papers/w21588 152; journal version: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0019793917692945 153
One-sentence critique: Open-entry-aligned economists argue the most negative estimates can reflect fragile subgroup definitions and that longer-run equilibria, capital adjustment, and city comparisons often moderate effects. 112
Claims: Immigration can reduce wages for directly competing low-skill workers in certain contexts; policy should treat distribution seriously. 154
Assumptions: Labor markets are segmented by skill; short-run supply shocks can have meaningful localized effects; distributional justice matters politically and ethically. 155
Evidence demanded (by Borjas-style critics): Robust causal evidence on the lowest-skill tails and on substitution patterns (native internal migration, sectoral changes), not just averages. 156
Rhetorical tactics: “Who loses?” framing; insistence on subgroup matching and skepticism about aggregate-welfare rhetoric. 155
Social cohesion and managed migration
Critic: Paul Collier157 158
Short bio: Development economist; profiles and reviews describe his focus on migration’s effects on migrants, origin countries, and host societies. 159
Signature claim: Migration creates benefits but also costs (including potential effects on cohesion and origin-country “brain drain”); policy should strike a managed balance rather than defaulting to near-unlimited movement. 160
Key works (primary): Exodus161 https://global.oup.com/academic/product/exodus-9780190231484 162; review in Migration Studies: https://academic.oup.com/migration/article-abstract/1/3/375/951665 163
One-sentence critique: Open-entry advocates argue Collier’s risk emphasis can lean on speculative political-economy mechanisms and that “managed” restrictions often produce irregularity and exploitation rather than stable control. 65
Claims: Large-scale migration can strain social trust/solidarity and alter political equilibria; prudent policy may require limits and integration capacity. 164
Assumptions: Social capital and cohesiveness matter for welfare states and political stability; diversity effects can be nontrivial in the short run. 165
Evidence demanded (by Collier-style critics): Empirical support that higher diversity reduces trust/redistribution and that the effect is large enough to justify restricting movement rather than adjusting institutions. 165
Rhetorical tactics: “Balanced ledger” framing (pros/cons for sending/receiving/migrants) and appeal to political feasibility. 166
Real-world precedents and lessons
Regional free-movement regimes are the closest operational analogues to “open entry” in practice, though they are typically open within a club and restrictive at the club’s external boundary. 11
Schengen
The Schengen Area167 removes internal border checks for participating states while relying on common external-border rules and cooperation; EU sources emphasize that temporary internal border controls can be reintroduced as a last resort under serious threat conditions and must meet necessity and proportionality principles. 168
Recent EU institutional commentary (including Parliament-focused explainers) highlights reforms and ongoing tensions around internal controls and migration/security pressures, illustrating that even robust free-movement systems face recurrent political stress tests. 169
ECOWAS
Economic Community of West African States170 adopted the 1979 protocol providing phased rights of entry, residence, and establishment for community citizens; official texts describe the staged abolition of obstacles and specify rights and conditions. 171
Analytical summaries (including UN and UN-affiliated materials) emphasize phased implementation and uneven practice across states, which open-entry advocates often interpret as evidence that institutional capacity matters as much as formal legal rights. 172
MERCOSUR residence agreement
MERCOSUR173’s residence framework (often referenced as the 2002 Residence Agreement) is widely described as facilitating legal residence and work across participating states, with a pathway from temporary to permanent residence, and relatively light requirements beyond nationality plus basic documentation. 174
Because official treaty texts and translations can be harder to access in a single stable English source, many discussions rely on institutional summaries (e.g., ILO practice notes) and policy analysis (MPI), which supply operational details and implementation history. 174
Lessons for open entry advocates
- Free movement is governance-heavy: Schengen’s architecture and EU legal summaries show free movement coexists with coordinated rules, shared systems, and emergency mechanisms. 168
- “Open inside” can intensify “closed outside”: regional openness may shift moral and political pressure toward external border enforcement and asylum systems. 175
- Implementation matters: ECOWAS experience illustrates that legal protocols can outpace administrative and political practice. 176
Intra-movement debates among open-entry advocates
Open-entry advocates disagree most sharply over three design choices.
Welfare state and redistribution
A recurring pragmatic stance is to preserve broad movement while adjusting welfare eligibility rules; this appears in keyhole-oriented proposals and in policy discussions reacting to fiscal research that finds impacts vary by age/skill/integration. 177
A core internal critique is that staged welfare access risks creating a two-tier society and undermining the egalitarian moral case for openness. 44
Political rights and democratic inclusion
Democratic-coercion theorists push toward stronger justificatory inclusion of outsiders, while keyhole pragmatists often accept delayed enfranchisement (residence now, voting later) as a stabilization device. 178
This dispute is not merely technical: it changes whether “open entry” is conceived as a pathway to equal rank membership or as persistent denizenship. 179
Exclusion lists and security screening
Most open-entry positions accept that some exclusions are legitimate (e.g., serious security threats), but differ on whether the exclusion list must be extremely narrow (rights-first) or can be broader (harm/feasibility-first). 180
Primary sources and accessible summaries to cite
This section is intentionally “Obsidian-ready”: URLs are included as inline code, and the list prioritizes primary sources, official institutional pages, and peer-reviewed research/syntheses.
Core open-entry advocates
- Joseph Carens18
- Primary article page: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/review-of-politics/article/aliens-and-citizens-the-case-for-open-borders/5B0946DEB5203B576657C506C58F0FD6 21
- Book page: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-ethics-of-immigration-9780199933839 19
- Arash Abizadeh25
- Journal page: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0090591707310090 28
- Faculty profile: https://www.mcgill.ca/politicalscience/arash-abizadeh 26
- Michael Clemens31
- JEP article (official): https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/jep.25.3.83 34
- CGD place-premium hub: https://www.cgdev.org/publication/place-premium-wage-differences-identical-workers-across-us-border-working-paper-148 35
- Bryan Caplan39
- Project site: https://openborderscomic.com/ 43
- Faculty profile: https://economics.gmu.edu/people/bcaplan 40
- Ayelet Shachar49
- Book page: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674032712 53
- Faculty profile: https://www.law.berkeley.edu/our-faculty/faculty-profiles/ayelet-shachar/ 50
- Chandran Kukathas57
- Book access page: https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv16rdcgw 60
- Institutional repository pointer: https://ink.library.smu.edu.sg/soss_research/2919/ 61
- Princeton UP page exists but tool access is blocked by robots.txt (access unspecified): https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691189680/immigration-and-freedom 62
Major syntheses and peer-reviewed empirical anchors
- National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine113 report page and highlights:
- https://www.nationalacademies.org/projects/DBASSE-CNSTAT-13-03/publication/23550 181
- highlights PDF: https://nap.nationalacademies.org/resource/23550/RiB-fiscal-immigration.pdf 182
- OECD fiscal discussion (cross-country):
- https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/en/publications/reports/2013/06/international-migration-outlook-2013_g1g2e35e/migr_outlook-2013-en.pdf 183
- Mariel Boatlift canonical papers:
- Card PDF: https://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/mariel-impact.pdf 184
- Borjas NBER WP: https://www.nber.org/papers/w21588 152
- Peri & Yasenov (NBER and/or journal listing): https://www.nber.org/papers/w21801 and JSTOR entry https://www.jstor.org/stable/26627853 112
- Crime and immigration synthesis:
- Ousey & Kubrin citation page: https://ssrn.com/abstract=3120417 and/or accessible PDF mirror (if needed) https://prohic.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/82-27juli2020-ImmigrationCrimeMeta.pdf 120
Prominent critics (primary sources)
- Michael Walzer122 membership excerpt: https://www.ias.edu/sites/default/files/sss/BordersWalzer.pdf 126
- Christopher Heath Wellman129
- article: https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/592311 132
- debate book page: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/debating-the-ethics-of-immigration-9780199731732 134
- David Miller139
- book page: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674986787 143
- Oxford archive chapter: https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:a072319a-4e17-4d82-9ccf-520d17bf70eb/files/rt148fh621 144
- George Borjas108
- Mariel reappraisal: https://www.nber.org/papers/w21588 152
- Paul Collier157
- OUP book page: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/exodus-9780190231484 162
Real-world precedent documentation
- Schengen Area167
- EU Home Affairs page on temporary internal controls: https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/schengen/schengen-area/temporary-reintroduction-border-control_en 185
- EUR-Lex summary: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/rules-on-crossing-eu-borders.html 186
- Economic Community of West African States170
- official protocol PDF (ECOWAS-hosted): https://ecowas.int/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/PROTOCOL-RELATING-TO-FREE-MOVEMENT-OF-PERSONS.pdf (access details may vary) 187
- UNCTAD treaty download: https://investmentpolicy.unctad.org/international-investment-agreements/treaty-files/3269/download 188
- Refworld entry: https://www.refworld.org/legal/agreements/ecowas/1979/en/56580 189
- MERCOSUR173
- MPI analysis: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/free-movement-south-america-emergence-alternative-model 190
- ILO practice note: https://wwwex.ilo.org/dyn/migpractice/migmain.showPractice?p_lang=en&p_practice_id=187 191
Religious/humanitarian primary texts
- Holy See66 Catechism §2241: https://www.vatican.va/content/catechism/en/part_three/section_two/chapter_two/article_4/v_the_authorities_in_civil_society.html 70
- United Nations67 UDHR: https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights 71
- World Council of Churches68 “People on the Move”: https://www.oikoumene.org/resources/documents/statement-on-people-on-the-move-migrants-and-refugees 72
- United States Conference of Catholic Bishops192 balanced stance page: https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/immigration/catholic-teaching-on-immigration-and-the-movement-of-peoples 193
1 16 17 18 71 75 85 101 103 111 Universal Declaration of Human Rights
https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights
2 12 20 21 23 25 80 145 Aliens and Citizens: The Case for Open Borders
3 13 27 28 29 30 88 139 167 178 Democratic Theory and Border Coercion - Arash Abizadeh …
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0090591707310090
4 14 33 34 38 57 81 91 94 104 157 Economics and Emigration: Trillion-Dollar Bills on the …
https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257%2Fjep.25.3.83
5 40 41 95 Faculty and Staff: Bryan D Caplan - Economics
https://economics.gmu.edu/people/bcaplan
6 52 53 55 56 68 97 118 The Birthright Lottery
https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674032712
7 58 59 Chandran KUKATHAS - SMU Faculty Directory
https://faculty.smu.edu.sg/profile/chandran-kukathas-1946
8 69 70 74 77 V. The Authorities In Civil Society
9 46 65 84 93 177 Book Review - Immigration and Freedom | Global Policy Journal
https://www.globalpolicyjournal.com/blog/01/09/2021/book-review-immigration-and-freedom
10 37 47 49 82 105 114 181 The Economic and Fiscal Consequences of Immigration
https://www.nationalacademies.org/projects/DBASSE-CNSTAT-13-03/publication/23550
11 63 64 89 90 133 168 185 Temporary Reintroduction of Border Control
15 60 98 99 110 Immigration and Freedom on JSTOR
https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv16rdcgw
19 Joseph Carens | Department of Political Science
https://www.politics.utoronto.ca/people/directories/all-faculty/joseph-carens
22 24 Is there a human right to immigrate
https://www.politics.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/inline-files/SJ033.pdf
26 Arash Abizadeh | Political Science
https://www.mcgill.ca/politicalscience/arash-abizadeh
31 39 44 144 146 147 148 170 179 Controlling Immigration in the Name of Self-Determination
https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid%3Aa072319a-4e17-4d82-9ccf-520d17bf70eb/files/rt148fh621
32 35 Michael Clemens | Center For Global Development
https://www.cgdev.org/expert/michael-clemens
36 Synthetic Control Method meets the Mariel Boatlift
https://giovanniperi.ucdavis.edu/uploads/5/6/8/2/56826033/mariel_may_10_2016.pdf
42 Bryan Caplan
https://econfaculty.gmu.edu/bcaplan/
43 45 48 66 79 83 161 Open Borders
https://www.law.berkeley.edu/our-faculty/faculty-profiles/ayelet-shachar/
https://www.ias.edu/sites/default/files/sss/BordersWalzer.pdf
61 “Immigration and freedom” by Chandran KUKATHAS
https://ink.library.smu.edu.sg/soss_research/2919/
62 A collection of recent excellent (according to experts …
https://www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/1aehwsw/a_collection_of_recent_excellent_according_to/
72 76 78 Statement on People on the Move: Migrants and Refugees
https://www.oikoumene.org/resources/documents/statement-on-people-on-the-move-migrants-and-refugees
73 87 92 106 116 117 183 International Migration Outlook 2013
86 180 1 The Duty to Allow Harmless Migration Anna Stilz astilz@ …
https://www.law.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/The-Duty-to-Allow-Harmless-Migration.pdf
96 The Birthright Lottery: Citizenship and Global Inequality by …
100 102 EU begins gradual rollout of digital border system
https://www.reuters.com/world/eu-begins-gradual-rollout-digital-border-system-2025-10-12/
107 184 The Impact of the Mariel Boatlift on the Miami Labor Market …
https://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/mariel-impact.pdf
108 163 166 Exodus: How migration is changing our world. By Paul Collier.
https://academic.oup.com/migration/article-abstract/1/3/375/951665
109 113 151 The Wage Impact of the Marielitos: A Reappraisal George J …
https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w21588/revisions/w21588.rev0.pdf
112 129 Applying the Synthetic Control Method to the Mariel Boatlift
https://www.nber.org/papers/w21801
115 The Economic and Fiscal Consequences of Immigration …
https://www.nationalacademies.org/read/23550/chapter/2
119 122 132 138 Immigration and Freedom of Association* | Ethics
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/592311
120 173 Immigration and Crime: Assessing a Contentious Issue
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3120417
121 Immigration and Crime: Assessing a Contentious Issue
https://prohic.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/82-27juli2020-ImmigrationCrimeMeta.pdf
123 Michael Walzer | School of Social Science
https://www.ias.edu/sss/faculty/walzer
125 131 136 137 Immigration and Freedom of Association* Christopher …
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/592311
128 141 David Miller - Nuffield College - University of Oxford
https://www.nuffield.ox.ac.uk/people/profiles/david-miller/
130 Kit Wellman | Arts & Sciences
https://artsci.washu.edu/faculty-staff/kit-wellman
134 Debating the Ethics of Immigration - Hardcover
https://global.oup.com/academic/product/debating-the-ethics-of-immigration-9780199731732
135 Immigration, Jurisdiction, and Exclusion
https://www.jstor.org/stable/42703847
140 David Miller | Faculty of Philosophy
https://www.philosophy.ox.ac.uk/people/david-miller
142 143 Strangers in Our Midst
https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674986787
149 150 George Borjas | Harvard Kennedy School
https://www.hks.harvard.edu/faculty/george-borjas
152 154 155 156 The Wage Impact of the Marielitos: A Reappraisal
https://www.nber.org/papers/w21588
153 The Wage Impact of the Marielitos: A Reappraisal
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0019793917692945
158 159 Exodus: How Migration Is Changing Our World | Oxford Martin …
https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/publications/exodus-how-migration-is-changing-our-world
https://global.oup.com/academic/product/exodus-9780190231484
164 165 Exodus: How Migration is Changing Our World - Paul Collier
https://books.google.com/books/about/Exodus.html?id=IXI8DwAAQBAJ
169 Schengen: a guide to the European border-free zone | Topics
171 176 188 Ecowas Protocol on persons, residence and establishment …
https://investmentpolicy.unctad.org/international-investment-agreements/treaty-files/3269/download
172 Free movement under ECOWAS
https://www.unhcr.org/sites/default/files/legacy-pdf/49e479c811.pdf
174 191 Good practice - MERCOSUR Residence Agreement
https://wwwex.ilo.org/dyn/migpractice/migmain.showPractice?p_lang=en&p_practice_id=187
175 ‘The end of Schengen’: Germany’s new border controls put EU unity at risk
182 Economic and Fiscal Consequences of Immigration
https://nap.nationalacademies.org/resource/23550/RiB-fiscal-immigration.pdf
186 Rules on crossing EU borders | EUR-Lex - European Union
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/rules-on-crossing-eu-borders.html
187 ECOWAS Free Movement Protocol
https://ecowas.int/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/PROTOCOL-RELATING-TO-FREE-MOVEMENT-OF-PERSONS.pdf
189 Protocol Relating to Free Movement of Persons, Residence …
https://www.refworld.org/legal/agreements/ecowas/1979/en/56580
190 Article: Free Movement in South America: The Emerg..
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/free-movement-south-america-emergence-alternative-model
193 Catholic Social Teaching on Immigration and the …
Content
Conversation with cameraman
1:28:14
think the cameraman left. He was Did that offend you? I think it offended him so deeply he left the room. Are you serious?
1:28:20
Yeah, that’s why he left. He shook his head and left. But I don’t know what what’s what’s the other what’s the only
1:28:26
other solution to that? Yeah. Um I think Wait, let’s bring the camera guy up here and ask him his solution. Get him up
1:28:33
here and we mic him up. Mic him up and I’ll ask him what his solution is. Actually, because your position is not
1:28:38
that bad. The point is why are you breaking the law? Okay, you’re breaking the law and there’s repercussions.
1:28:44
You’re not the innocent one here. I mean, in other words, I agree with you. But if anybody else has a solution, I’m
1:28:50
willing to hear the solution. I mean I don’t know what the solution would be other than you have to have a moratorum
1:28:56
and if people try to come to the border you have to shoot them. The thing is you know I’ve said this what is the other solution?
1:29:01
The thing that I’ve said before which I just people don’t get this is you know especially Europeans and Americans I
1:29:07
might have told you this before but you know when you look at the world population whites are like six 7%.
1:29:13
Yeah. They’re already a minority. Yeah. And yet it’s they who have to who feel it’s their job, their moral right, their
1:29:21
moral duty to always let everyone take their country. Even though they’re the tiny minority and uh you know, the world
1:29:27
is flooding with blacks and browns and yellows or whatever, but the whites are the ones that it’s you know, oh, you’re
1:29:33
a bad person because you don’t give up your land. Hey, if you dis if you disagree, did you leave because you disagreed?
1:29:42
Um, no. No, I just needed to go use the bathroom real quick. But you didn’t leave cuz you disagreed with anything?
1:29:47
No, no, no, no. Oh, okay. Cuz I’m going to say if you disagreed, I’m more than willing to have a conversation with you about it. I appreciate that. Maybe we could do
1:29:53
that at the end of the shoot. I mean, we’ll get it on film right now. Um, I appreciate that. I don’t feel like
1:29:59
um if you don’t want to appear, maybe he can ask it and we can speak without
1:30:05
ask question. I mean, you can ask me anything. wrong feelings about finding the murder of Charlie Kirk
1:30:11
absolutely wrong, which I agree. But then to say in the same sentence,
1:30:17
um, we should be shooting people for just being a refugee, trying to flee
1:30:24
violent conditions, trying to make a better life for themselves. Okay. I mean, give it to me in a sentence because I’m
1:30:30
going to repeat what you said. I want to make sure that I get it right. Sure. I just think it’s uh you’re either
1:30:36
I don’t think you can denounce political violence um especially like really nasty
1:30:41
political violence like shooting someone um while calling for that political violence against your who people you
1:30:48
judge to be political enemies. Okay. So I just want to get this in a sentence. So your problem with what I
1:30:53
was saying is you don’t think I can denounce the murder of Charlie Kirk and advocate for shooting people who come to
1:31:00
a country illegally. Did I get that right? Because yes, that’s right. Because I think laws are um you know, I
1:31:07
think laws are um inherently um malleable. I mean, at
1:31:13
one point it was illegal for a black person to go into a white only establishment. Yeah. Um I think that a refugee, for example,
1:31:21
has a right to come to who’s fleeing violence has a right to come to another country. So what I found offensive though is just
1:31:27
you saying shooting those people because to me that is similar to what you were
1:31:32
denouncing earlier which I agree with. We shouldn’t kill our political enemies. I think calling for shooting and killing
1:31:38
people that you have that disagreement with. To me that that made me feel about how
1:31:44
you would probably feel if someone said they were pro shooting and killing Charlie Kirk. So what would your solution be to
1:31:51
illegal immigration in Europe? Well, I think Muslims make a small percentage of the immigrants in Europe
1:31:58
or the population in Europe. It’s something like 5 to 10%. Um, I don’t think immigration is actually a problem.
1:32:04
If you look at statistics, um, undocumented immigrants commit less crimes and less violent crimes.
1:32:11
But that doesn’t answer the question though. So, what is the solution to illegal immigration in Europe? Well, I gave you
1:32:16
It does answer the question because you’re So, in your question, you’re implying that there’s a problem that
1:32:21
needs to be solved. So the way I’m answering that is I’m saying that implication is false
1:32:27
and the and the facts don’t support your feelings about the issue and the facts are that especially in America
1:32:33
undocumented immigrants commit less crime. We’re talking about Western Europe. So we’re talking about Western Europe. I
1:32:39
believe the statistics are fairly similar. Um I looked it up while you were talking and there are more hate
1:32:47
crimes against Muslims than there are hate crimes against Christians. And I
1:32:52
understand that’s a topic of debate, but to pretend that a minority that’s 5 to 10% of the population is somehow
1:33:00
oppressing 80% of the rest of the population, um, I just I don’t think facts support that. And I think calling
1:33:06
for shooting people, I think is is over the line. I think that’s over the line in the same way that you probably felt
1:33:12
when you saw someone shot and killed Charlie Kirk because they disagreed with him. I think that’s um I think that’s
1:33:19
just deeply objectionable rhetoric especially right now. Okay. So I just want to make sure I
1:33:24
understand your position correctly. So you don’t think there’s a problem with illegal immigration?
1:33:30
I think whether immigration is legal or illegal is arbitrary. Um so you think that we should allow people
1:33:37
to come to not you you had based you had based your argument on the idea that people are
1:33:42
coming into this country without being quote unquote vetted. Right. I’m talking we’re talking about I just want to be clear. We’re talking
1:33:47
about Western Europe of this conversation. Well, um I think basically if there’s
1:33:53
not a legal process to immigrate then the term illegal immigration becomes a
1:33:59
misnomer because what you actually have a problem with is immigration, not illegal immigration, immigration in
1:34:05
general. What if a country said we don’t want immigrants? Is that okay? If a country said what?
1:34:10
We don’t want immigrants. Well, and I would say that um I’m a white person. You’re a white person. You’re a white
1:34:17
person. I’m not a white person. Um I apologize for assuming if you’re not white, and I apologize genuinely for that.
1:34:23
Um my ancestors came to this country and there were other people living here. Let’s say let’s say Europe, we were
1:34:29
talking about Europe. Let’s say the UK says we’re British and German says we’re Germans. We don’t want non whatever into
1:34:36
our country. Do they have that right? Well, and what I would say is that’s when we back up and we look at the history of imperialism. If you want to
1:34:43
talk about violence, if you want to But yes or no, I just I’m looking for a yes. Well, of course, you’re looking for a
1:34:48
simple answer because um but what I’m actually doing is rhetorically unpacking
1:34:53
what you’re implying and how that breaks down once you start. No, no, it’s a country saying, “Look, we’re a sovereign nation. We are the
1:35:00
country.” Okay, but I was answering that. So I was answering that you have to look at for example why are there so many Muslims uh
1:35:06
immigrating to Europe because it’s a better life there because uh in over the last couple decades uh
1:35:13
the US with their European allies killed over a million people and destabilized
1:35:19
the entire region most of the people coming to Europe are refugees from European actions. So it’s entirely
1:35:26
hypocritical to say that you have no right to be here when we and you’re making a humanitarian argument.
1:35:31
In other words, it is a humanitarian argument. Absolutely. Okay. Okay. So I’m just trying to think
1:35:37
of how this translates into policy. Sure. In the context of Western Europe specifically. Sure.
1:35:43
So does a country have a right to say we’re going to close our borders?
1:35:48
I think that immigration is a human right. Okay. So in the same way just just to be
1:35:53
clear I want to be clear in if Saudi Arabia said we don’t want non-Muslims this is our country we are a Muslim
1:35:59
country and we don’t want non-Muslims do you have a problem there? Absolutely. I would say that’s deeply
1:36:04
oppressive. That is what they do. Exactly. And that’s what that’s my thing. I’m against that sort of policy.
1:36:10
I’m against bigotry. I’m against uh closing the borders. I’m against um I
1:36:16
think people I think immigration is a human right. I’m against uh dictatorship. I’m against uh the
1:36:21
dictatorship in Saudi Arabia and I’m also against oppression of of Muslims here in America as well. I believe in
1:36:26
freedom which means the freedom to be Christian and the freedom to be Muslim wherever you are in the world. How about the freedom to have my own
1:36:32
country without anyone coming in? I don’t think that is a reasonable no. I don’t believe in that. I would describe
1:36:39
that and to give you an analogy I would say that say the Jim Crow era someone could have made a similar argument. Do I
1:36:46
have the freedom to go into a place without people of different races? And I would say no because that’s impinching
1:36:52
on their freedom and that’s not actually a free society. But I mean America is a different example because the you know slaves were
1:36:57
brought here. I get that. I’d like to keep talking about Western Europe. I mean if you really want to talk about America we can but we’re
1:37:03
talking about he I think that the issues are my analogist but I understand. Go ahead. He asked me my solution for what should
1:37:09
be done. Did I get that wrong? You asked. Yeah. Yeah. Like yeah what what does your need to do? We started the UK and
1:37:14
then you called for shooting people. And so that made me feel about probably how you would feel if suddenly I called for
1:37:20
shooting someone um who you who you would respect. See, can I answer to that because it
1:37:26
strikes me as a little different. Here’s what he’s saying, I think, is this. We America is a sovereign nation or any
1:37:31
nation, not just America. Let’s say Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia decides we have borders and we don’t want anyone
1:37:37
coming illegally. Okay, you can maybe apply legally and we’ll figure it out. Okay, we’ve made our position known.
1:37:43
This is our nation. These are our borders. Now, once someone knowingly says, “I’m gonna try to get there.”
1:37:49
Isn’t that kind of their fault? They’ve now stuck themselves, they’ve put themselves in this position where
1:37:54
they’re the bad guys. Whereas the Charlie Kirk example, no, this is a person who said, “I don’t like your
1:37:59
political views and I’m going to murder you.” So, I don’t really think they’re analogists. I think that um let’s agree on one
1:38:07
thing. Uh killing someone is really bad. Yeah. shooting and killing someone. I
1:38:12
made a law. This is our land. You’re an outsider. That’s how the world works. Every country’s like that.
1:38:17
If someone were to propose that we shoot, you chose to break in. If someone were to propose that we shoot
1:38:22
and kill uh say people who uh violate a speed limit, I would say that’s very
1:38:28
gross and very bad. Yeah. Well, okay. But Okay. So, now you understand. Now you understand that just because it’s
1:38:33
illegal that proposing to shoot and kill them, that’s deeply offensive. saying that because we don’t do that and nobody
1:38:39
respects us and they do it and they break the law. So obviously the the response has to be raised up and it the
1:38:46
the repercussions have to be greater not because we want to do that but people need to respect and fear the law that’s
1:38:53
how it works. So you feel that anybody should just be allowed to come to Western Europe who wants to come? Uh yes I believe that.
1:38:59
Well that’s a that’s a different Okay. And also I would go so far as to meet you halfway and say there should be a
1:39:06
vetting process. And this is my issue and this is the big issue is because that’s not
1:39:14
people aren’t being refused access because they’re being vetted and it’s
1:39:19
determined that they’re not allowed because they don’t meet some requirements. They’re being refused access because in mass uh they only
1:39:27
allow a small amount of people. So, it’s not that people are trying to get in who, okay,
1:39:32
fail a vetting process. It’s that immigration itself is being banned and that’s being pretended like that’s about
1:39:39
a vetting process. But it’s not about a vetting process. It’s about excluding what I feel like is a human right, the
1:39:45
right to leave a war torn country and make a better life for yourself. Okay. So, let’s go back to the original
1:39:51
claim. He asked me about Western Europe. What would I do? When I asked him, “Are there
1:39:57
any questions you’d like to ask me?” And I went through a litany of things that I
1:40:02
thought I would do, I mentioned shooting. And if any of this, my
1:40:09
recollection is an error, please let me know. You I’m jumping ahead. You offered to
1:40:14
meet me halfway and say you think we should have a vetting process. My argument to you would be you haven’t
1:40:20
answered the question. What do you do with people who go to Western Europe illegally? you still have people coming
1:40:26
in danger. I would say that it’s a I would say you would treat that like a minor crime in this instance if one that it is actually
1:40:34
possible to immigrate um if you pass a vetting process which by the way it’s not um you need a lot of money and a lot
1:40:40
of resources and they only allow a small amount. Realistically, immigration is not possible for people. But two, if
1:40:47
someone does break what I would consider a minor crime, which is crossing a border, that they should be treated and
1:40:53
that should be assessed in the same way of, for example, somebody speeding, which is a minor crime that would
1:41:00
require appropriate consequences and not, for example, shooting them. Okay? And I I and just to say why I
1:41:07
walked out. Um one of my best friends is an undocumented immigrant. Yeah.
1:41:12
And um you call say suggesting that he be shot for what I don’t even consider
1:41:18
to be a crime. Is he in Western Europe? Uh he’s not.
1:41:23
Okay. So let’s go back to this. So we we have the country of the UK, the United
1:41:29
Kingdom in England. We’ve agree, we make a law. We say we’re going to vet people and we still have
1:41:36
what is it Matt Goodwin’s statistic in Eric Kaufman 183,000 people entering the country and you want to treat that like
1:41:44
a speeding violation. Do you know how many speeding violations there are a day? No, I just want to make sure that I
1:41:49
understand the argument. Yeah, that’s not basically I don’t think it’s a crime to cross the border border.
1:41:54
It’s a totally say the truth. I think you don’t even care like if someone breaks and and
1:41:59
enters illegally I think you think it’s okay. you probably are rooting for them, right? Because that would be a crime. I’m
1:42:05
saying it’s a crime to break into someone’s house and steal something and if someone does a crime, they should be
1:42:12
punished for a crime. I’m saying it’s not a crime to immigrate. Do you think of So, you don’t believe in
1:42:19
sovereignty of a nation? Uh, I mean, honestly, I think that um
1:42:27
sovereignty is largely um something that is used to oppress people. Okay. All
1:42:34
right. Well, that’s good. Thank you for being honest. So, now I know exactly what you believe. And so,
1:42:40
if we try to agree upon something and meet me halfway, I don’t think that’s meeting halfway because it doesn’t
1:42:46
answer the question. the I think I answered your question but well the idea is that there is is there any number of illegal immigrants that we
1:42:52
shouldn’t like if if 10 million people wanted to come into the UK or on dingies in a year we would
1:43:02
just treat that like a speeding violations for those individuals um realistically it would be fine um the
1:43:08
number you honest that’s honest the number the number you proposed was I
1:43:13
think hyperbolic um and would realistically when we when you look at
1:43:20
the facts when uh undocumented or not when immigrants go to a community that
1:43:25
community benefits I’m not talking about the benefits argument I’m talking about if people
1:43:31
there is no upper limit of people you think before we say absolutely no more
1:43:36
uh that’s right I think that’s honest human human humans have since the dawn of time uh been born to migrate I think
1:43:45
it’s a human Right. Um, I’m going to wish you something. I wish to consign
1:43:51
you and your family and all of your posterity to lives that you want to create because you’re pretty much going
1:43:57
to create that in Western Europe. And I wish that to consign you to that life. I wish you to give you the very thing you
1:44:03
want. I would wish nothing else upon you than that. Uh,
1:44:10
sorry, I’m I’m not understanding what you’re trying to communicate to me right now. I’m trying to communicate in the context of Western Europe, you’re
1:44:16
getting the world that you want and it will it is. Yeah, I’m positive of
1:44:21
that. All of the data indicate that that the world that you’re advocating is coming and we can we’ll see the
1:44:28
consequences of that. I mean, I think all of the world has lots of problems, but I would say the
1:44:33
biggest one is racism and im anti-immigrant racism, authoritarianism.
1:44:39
I think those are the big problems. And I ultimately think when you’re comparing things like violence against Christians
1:44:45
and violence against Muslims, you have to go back like 10, 20 years. A
1:44:52
Christian country killed a million Muslims in an invasion in the Middle East. And that is the context in which
1:44:58
this immigration is taking place. This what’s that? Which country is this? This was the United States. The United States Christian country.
1:45:05
So George W. Bush during the invasion. very very he may have engaged in
1:45:12
terminology very directly said cited God. Yes. If you look at the statistics
1:45:18
crusade yeah if you look at the statistics of he wasn’t doing it for Christian reasons.
1:45:23
Almost all of uh almost every uh person in power in this country is Christian.
1:45:29
I’m an atheist, so I don’t know what. But I’m just I’m just glad that you were
1:45:35
honest with me and said there’s no upper limit to illegal immigration in Western Europe because you’re going to get the
1:45:40
society that you want. Well, and I think that would be a better society. And the reality is, we’re about to find out.
1:45:46
You are what they call, and I’ve never really encountered one, and I’m happy to do so, and this isn’t an offense, but
1:45:52
you are what they call a woke person, aren’t you? Uh, yeah. Uh, I would say so. Um I think
1:45:57
um and what you experienced when you stormed out that’s called triggering. Um was I triggered when you uh was
1:46:05
somebody called for uh the violent shooting of one of my
1:46:11
friends? Absolutely. Is your friend Western European? Um do you remember he is an immigrant?
1:46:18
You specifically called for the shooting of immigrants. My friend is an immigrant.
1:46:23
Illegal immigrants, not immigrants. And in the context of Western Europe again whether it’s legal or illegal and
1:46:29
again undocumented person is the term I use because it’s arbitrary
1:46:34
use any term you want uh it’s arbitrary but yes um so you think it’s arbitrary you think the conditions by which one should enter
1:46:40
the country so if someone as you said countries have no sovereignty but if someone’s a serial rapist a
1:46:46
serial child pedophile arbitrary those are interesting reasons why someone would be denied access do
1:46:52
you think that’s why people are being denied access. Those are interesting reasons that I would support I would support denying
1:46:59
someone access who is guilty of those things. That’s not why people are denied access. And what do you do if they if a group if
1:47:04
a boatloads of them are coming over? What do you do? Um what do you do? You’re you’re in charge
1:47:10
of the government. That’s literally how our entire country was built. But to answer the question, you’re in
1:47:16
charge of the UK. Well, I am refugees. I’m literally answering it. That’s how all of America
1:47:21
is built. Do you think America? All right. So obviously we cannot distinguish between America and Western Europe. I’ve tried repeatedly. So let’s
1:47:27
talk about the United States then. Okay. We could talk about the UK if you want. No, we’ve tried that. It hasn’t worked. So let’s talk about the UK.
1:47:33
You were trying to suggest that it’s a problem. Time out, guys, just for a second. We do
1:47:38
have to turn over the room in like 35 minutes. Okay. So go ahead. You know what? But I will say I
1:47:44
appreciate you hearing me out. It sounds like we may have to end this argument. Why? We have plenty of time. Oh, I’m sorry. I thought I just heard
1:47:50
that we have say we have No, we have I’m totally you have done I’m totally I’ve totally I’m totally
1:47:56
talked to you all day. So I again we don’t have to talk about Western Europe if if that’s
1:48:02
I don’t think it’s a problem when people immigrate. I don’t think it’s bad for the country. Let’s go back to and I don’t think immigration laws
1:48:08
actually stop people from immigrating. They just create a lower tier of worker who they can pay less and oppress.
1:48:15
I I hear you and let’s go back to the question. Okay. We have a boatload of
1:48:20
rapist, murderers, and pedophiles coming in. Completely false premise.
1:48:25
Well, I mean, it could happen. Can you entertain the hypothetical? Can you entertain that hypothetical? Okay, I will entertain the hypothetical
1:48:32
and yes. Okay, in that case, that is a situation where I would be sympathetic to the idea that
1:48:38
they would not be permitted access, but they’re on a dinghy. How do you block? How do you not let them come?
1:48:44
What do you do? I would say that um he’s going to bring them in and then
1:48:50
safely send them back. I would say that in the current context um there is no legal way to come in in a
1:48:58
vetted way. So it’s so what do we do? We have a boatload of
1:49:05
people who are murderers, pedophiles, rapist. And this is also what I would say. Yeah. What do we do with undocumented immigrants are less likely
1:49:12
to commit crimes than citizens? This is a hypothetical. Okay. I’m asking you a simple question. You
1:49:19
are the head. You’re Do I think people should be denied uh immigration? Uh no. No.
1:49:25
Based on past criminal history, I’m sympathetic to that. This is this is the this is the question in plain language.
1:49:32
You’re in charge of immigration policy in charge of the borders in the UK. You know for a fact that boatload, this is a
1:49:40
hypothetical that boatloads of rapists, child pedophiles, and mass murderers are
1:49:45
entering your country on dingies. What do you do? So I would say that how Okay, so for us
1:49:51
to have that information means that uh we would be able to stop
1:49:57
them. How would you stop them physically? How would you physically stop them? What would you do to stop them?
1:50:02
Oh, uh detain them and then deport them if potentially. I’m sympathetic to that argument. My point is that
1:50:09
what would how would you stop what would you do to stop them? Uh the same way you the same way you
1:50:14
stop someone who’s shoplifting. The same way you stop someone who’s apprehend them. So you’d intervene in all the boats. Any
1:50:21
of the boats coming in, you’d intervene and vet people. Uh not necessarily. I think um
1:50:27
immigration is a natural part of life. I
1:50:32
think for example if they are for example the criminals you describe
1:50:37
that we should have evidence against them that they did those crimes before we detain them and stop them.
1:50:45
Wow. Well, you’re going to get exactly the kind of Western Europe that you want. We
1:50:51
are already creating it. What is What is so scary? What is so scary about an immigrant to you? They’re
1:50:58
less likely to commit crimes. I I think you said in the last Let me answer your question. You said I want to reduce the
1:51:03
crime rate. You just ask me a question. This is what I would say. Did you just ask me a question? Let me ask you. Well, let me answer. You said
1:51:10
in my last interview with James Klo, did you not? Say that again. You didn’t you sit in my last interview
1:51:15
with James Klo? Yes. Yeah. and you explicitly heard me say that I’m pro- immigrant, that I’m pro
1:51:21
H1B visas, that I’m vehemently opposed to illegal immigration, and that it’s
1:51:26
bewildering to me why people cannot differentiate between illegal immigration and legal immigration.
1:51:31
And here’s the answer that I was screaming in my head. Obviously, it would have been inappropriate for me to say it. It’s very obvious. It’s not a
1:51:39
hard answer. Okay? The amount of immigrants they allow is so small that it effectively
1:51:46
makes all immigration illegal. Meaning it’s not possible to legally immigrate.
1:51:53
Who’s they? The governments. These regula government regulations. What government? Who?
1:51:59
All these governments. All western governments. All the countries we’re talking about. My wife was an immigrant. These um like I’m pretty familiar with
1:52:06
the process. It’s when someone comes here quote unquote illegally. It’s not that they were like too lazy or hiding
1:52:13
their criminal past. It’s because these countries don’t allow people to immigrate their rights. Well, that’s
1:52:19
Isn’t it the nation’s right to say, “Okay, we only want x amount because we
1:52:24
don’t want for whatever reason, we don’t want our demography to be overwhelmed in 10, 20 years.” No, I would say I would say no. I would
1:52:31
say that’s not a right. A genuine difference of opinion. And same reason I’m against Jim Crow laws. I’m saying if you’re interested in
1:52:37
democ preserving demography, well, that’s how people sounded during Jim Crow era. They’re saying, “Hey, if
1:52:43
we allow different races into these Here’s the thing. I think people like you assume that the people who do this
1:52:49
are all white. Blacks, browns, and yellows do the same thing. If you told them, “Hey, we’re going to introduce a
1:52:55
boatload of whites to the point where you’re going to become maybe a minority.” Blacks, browns, and yellows
1:53:00
would resist it even more. So, it’s not a racial thing. It’s just a human thing.
1:53:05
This is our country. We want it our way, our culture, and our people. That’s just the world. It’s not like a white racial
1:53:12
thing. It’s definitely a white racial thing. You have to look at the uh culture of imperialism. You have to look at the
1:53:18
direction in which people are immigrating. So why is it that white people are not refugees to Iraq?
1:53:24
Because nobody wants to go to Iraq. Everyone wants to go to white countries cuz that’s where all the goodies are.
1:53:29
Oh, and what happened in Iraq to make it so bad to destabilize. Well, why don’t
1:53:35
why doesn’t anyone want to go to Somalia and Kenya and Nigeria and Afghanistan
1:53:40
and Usuzbekistan and Libya is so did Britain or Europe have anything
1:53:47
interesting historically going on in the last couple hundred few hundred years in the country in the continent of Africa.
1:53:53
Oh yeah. It actually brought medicine, science, technology. Okay. So you think colonialism is good
1:53:59
and I think that is such a fundamental difference of opinion. Africans say that. Africans say that we learned all
1:54:04
that because before the colonial era, Africans were living basically almost like on a stone level. I think that’s
1:54:10
fundamental difference of opinion. Have you read anything that goes contrary to your opinion? Have you read
1:54:16
I’ve been listening to it for the last two hours while you while you sat there saying nobody ever said like nobody ever
1:54:23
can present an argument against me. I’m presenting them to you right now. I can use another beer. H have you have
1:54:29
you read any arguments against your position? Of course. Okay. Give me an example of something
1:54:35
you’ve read. Um I just listen to all your arguments.
1:54:41
Okay. But have you read an Have you read Bruce Gilly’s The Case for Colonialism? That’s the seinal piece that
1:54:47
I mean I think this is a weird argument tactic cuz I could also be like here’s my book that proves my opinion. You
1:54:52
should read this. Like why haven’t you read this? What would you say about someone on the other side if he had
1:54:58
never read anything who disagreed with him? Would you say that he was ignorant? So, you think I haven’t read things I
1:55:04
disagree with? I’m asking you give me a specific I guess he’s asking you that um your positions are they based on a deep
1:55:10
reading or are they maybe more emotional and ephemeral based on social media if they’re based on a deep I think that
1:55:17
actually while you guys were up here talking I was factchecking you which by the way I would recommend getting a
1:55:24
Jamie you know from Joe Rogan’s poke like for example but that doesn’t that doesn’t answer the question the question
1:55:30
is what no because because it was implied that I’m emotional and I’m not triggered.
1:55:36
And I would say that the opposite is the case. I would say that I’m the one who’s looking at facts.
1:55:42
You are the one who is leaning on emotions such as bigotry and racism to form your opinions and you are backing
1:55:49
into what you want to be true against what is the reality. Okay. So, let’s answer the question and
1:55:54
then I’d like to come back and give you an opportunity to address the racism claim because I is this all by the way like going to be
1:55:59
on which is fine. So, I hope so. So you haven’t read anything that was
1:56:06
positive about colonialism or you say I would say that the entire of course I
1:56:11
have I would say that’s the dominant ideology is give me an example what is colonial can
1:56:17
you summarize the colonial era like what was uh pros or cons or all cons? What was it? Um, I would say that that’s a
1:56:25
big question and I don’t think it’s as you know it in a couple sentences. You know, I know you’re not an expert.
1:56:30
This feels like a little bit of a trap because you’re asking me to define what is an extremely complex and big subject.
1:56:37
But to put it basically, um I would say that it is uh European powers at a
1:56:44
certain point in history basically decided uh started carving up the world and extracting raw resources from around
1:56:51
the world and engaging in uh genocide and slavery and in fact that was a
1:56:57
obviously the foundation of this country as well. Okay, let me ask you this. Um, and what you just said is actually pretty mainstream. So, um, did any other
1:57:04
civilizations do this? Absolutely. Okay. And so, can you name one because you’re familiar with what you’re
1:57:10
Absolutely. I’m against Muslim imperialism and American imperialism. That’s the difference between you and I.
1:57:16
You, for example, are bigoted against gay people very clearly. Um,
1:57:21
I’m not bigoted. I just uh you know and he’s big but at the same time you seem to
1:57:27
you seem to have a chip on your shoulder as if you are superior to the bigotry that also exists in Muslim countries and
1:57:34
I would say that I’m against both forms of bigotry. I’m actually against bigotry.
1:57:41
Do I mean I like where he’s going with it but I’m a little confused. I’m a little confused. Do you think I’m against gay people too?
1:57:47
Um I don’t uh know your opinions on it. I would say the way that you answered
1:57:52
the question of um when you specifically asked about um
1:57:58
holding hands, samesex partner, kissing hands, kissing also samesex partner specifically.
1:58:03
Yes. Yes. I detected that was bigotry. You guys also used the term [ __ ] which is a an anti-gay slur.
1:58:10
Is it okay? I would say means like a wimpy guy, but okay. That’s what I thought. Maybe it’s a
1:58:16
generational thing, but okay. So I I’m curious. What did we say that was racist to you? And do you think Islam is a
1:58:23
race? I would say that for example, your belief that Musl
1:58:31
that Muslims are somehow taking over Europe when they are a minority that’s 5 to 10% of Western Europe and um are
1:58:40
actually more susceptible to hate crimes than um are likely to commit them. I would say that that’s a racist opinion
1:58:47
because it’s not supported by facts. You’re using this word racist which everyone knows has been weaponized. I
1:58:52
mean, what does that even mean? I mean, it means judging people based on their ethnicity or their race or the
1:58:58
color of their skin. This has been defined in like the 190s. But wait, wait a second. May is Islam a race?
1:59:05
Well, I think race is a complex social construct and that’s the reality. And of course that’s going to be a scary
1:59:11
answer, but that’s the facts because if you look at it, for example, the way May I ask where you were educated?
1:59:17
Uh, no. I’m just curious. You went to college clearly. Yes, of course I I’m not answering that
1:59:22
question. Okay. Um, that’s a deeply condescending question. I don’t think it’s appropriate
1:59:27
to what’s going on right now. Why? Why is it? Because I wouldn’t ask that to you. Where were you university? I got my
1:59:34
doctorate from PSU. I went to Forom. I got my philosophy. The reality is race is a social
1:59:40
construct. For example, in-groups and outgroups are defined at different times
1:59:46
for different reasons. So I’m Irish and Italian. That’s correct. At one point that was not considered to
1:59:53
be a white person. So my grandparents were in the same category. Of course, that is correct.
1:59:59
Uh so that’s when I say racism is definitely real. But in reality, race,
2:00:05
we are all one human race. Um, and race is a science is actually a social
2:00:14
construct is what my answer would be. So, what what is I’m we’re going to bracket that for a second because I don’t want to go down that rabbit hole.
2:00:20
What did we say that was racist? I thought we were talking about a religion. Well, things that they’re saying.
2:00:25
I thought I thought I answered your question. I would say it’s racist to suggest that Muslims are somehow
2:00:32
oppressing Europe by their existence. That’s what was racist because the reality is they are a minority and they
2:00:39
are more likely to be subject to violence than to commit it. In the UK, in Germany, and in a lot of
2:00:44
these Western European nations, sex crimes, for example, are wildly
2:00:49
disproportionately performed by Muslim. I just got to feed my cats. You’re not pissed, right? All right.
2:00:54
Muslim migrants. Okay. This is documented. It’s wild. Do you accept that? Do you accept that? Well, I think
2:01:00
we should look at the sources because something interesting happened earlier in this conversation and I can do the
2:01:05
same thing. You know, I can say your sources are all made on Well, that’s what’s h that’s what happened earlier in this conversation is
2:01:11
that you made a pretty outrageous which one claim about churches being attacked
2:01:17
and you went on the internet and you didn’t find it. And I also told you and when you were called to task about
2:01:22
to present that source, you basically said what people say when they don’t have a source or No, I said I’ll go on my computer. I
2:01:29
have the old links, but if you do a Google search, you won’t find it is what I said. I can find it. Okay. Now, I respect that you
2:01:38
don’t think that stands up. I don’t think that’s how a reasonable person uh conducts things to say like, “Oh, I have
2:01:44
the evidence, but then I lost it cuz my computer lost it or whatever.” I say my computer. I said that it gets
2:01:50
expuned off the internet. I’ll write an article. I’ll put hyperlinks to the sources. They work. Three years later,
2:01:56
all those sources are gone. Okay. I just want to go back to the Clint because that’s a that’s a pretty weighty accusation. I think it’s a
2:02:02
weighty accusation that we said something that’s racist. And the idea is that and I want to make
2:02:07
sure that I understand your position correctly. The idea is that a criticism of Islamic immigration is by proxy a
2:02:14
criticism of race. I would say that the criticism you got
2:02:20
uh that has been made here today. Yes. The way that it was made is
2:02:25
fundamentally racist because it’s doesn’t match reality and it is
2:02:30
basically rooted in the idea of I’m scared of Muslims and I don’t want to live with them.
2:02:35
Okay. So let’s talk an Islamophobe. Uh yeah, he didn’t say that. Well, but we are you are in particular. You are.
2:02:43
So when you say the reality, are you disputing the crime statistics that he
2:02:48
gave for example of Somali in Western Europe? Are you disputing those statistics? I am. Yeah.
2:02:54
Okay. So, you’re disputing the statistics. So, what evidence would be
2:02:59
sufficient to persuade you that nothing? Well, we would have to look at we would have to we would have to sit down and
2:03:04
look at the evidence. Yeah. Okay. So, if I gave you in detail the evidence from Yan Vanderbeek or if I
2:03:11
gave you Eric Kaufman’s data and you showed and you looked at this data, would you be willing to change your
2:03:17
mind? Well, and then I think first of all, yes or no? Yes, it’s a hypothetical. Well, yes, I know you like to ask yes or
2:03:24
no questions because it doesn’t allow me to unpack the implications. We don’t have time. Why don’t you ask me
2:03:31
the ask me the question? I am answering your question. Your question is,
2:03:36
would that change my mind about immigration? And what I would say is no, that’s not what the question was. Okay. What was the question? The
2:03:41
question is, would it change your mind that you said you accused Raymond in particular of not operating in reality
2:03:47
about the crime statistics? If I showed you those statistics about taking from the Treasury and incarceration rates,
2:03:53
would you be willing to change your mind about would I be willing exactly what I just said about certain
2:04:00
about these arguments being racist? I gave the example that uh Muslim migrants in these various European
2:04:06
countries are wildly disproportionate in their sexual assaults. It’s something
2:04:11
like out of every 10, eight of them. That’s not the evidence I’ve seen. But he said if you did see, but this is a hypothetical.
2:04:17
Okay. So, so hypothetically, if you were right, you would be right. And hypothetically,
2:04:22
if I was right, I would be right. That’s how that works. Okay. When you entertain a hypothetical,
2:04:30
you accept by fiat the condition of the argument. So, hypothetically, if I gave
2:04:35
you data by I only know two off the top of my head, Eric Kaufman and I can’t
2:04:41
pronounce the guy’s name is a complicated name and but I’ve read both of the reports. I’ve read it’s but if you if you had that and you sir wow
2:04:49
there there is something there’s a there there would you be willing to change your mind you believe
2:04:54
he would never accept it because he’d be convinced it’s a lie. But you’re sorry you need to clarify. Would I be able to change my mind about
2:05:02
about the Do we have to go? Are you coming to get us out? We have to leave. Seven.
2:05:07
I’m sorry if you had a loss. Um, yes. That is why I walked out when you described
2:05:13
it’s irre Oh, I’m sorry. I’m sorry. That is why I walked out when you described brutally killing someone. That
2:05:18
is talk about some of that. Well, all right. Anyway, thank you for the conversation and thank you for talking.
2:05:24
Thank you for giving your objectives and I wanted to have a conversation. I wanted to say this. I do appreciate
2:05:30
you talking with me and I want to say that to you as well. I know we disagree. Yeah. Yeah. And I do think that we both hurt each
2:05:36
other and I I do respect both of you and um I hope some of that respect goes
2:05:42
towards me as well. I mean I certainly, you know, I think conversation is the essence of this whole thing. Absolutely. So and I appreciate you
2:05:49
hearing me out. Sure. Of course. So and I and I appreciate both of you as well. Coming on, man. Thanks. Appreciate it.
2:05:55
Thanks. Yep.